JONES: Penny Wong, good morning.
WONG: Good morning Alan, good to be with you.
JONES: Thank you very much. Thank you for your time. Look I know youll most probably say to me that were not ruling anything in or out, but dont you have an obligation when it comes to this critical area of medical research to rule out the fact that there will be cuts?
WONG: Medical research is an area we are very conscious of the importance of which. We have in fact put more money into medical research since we were in Government. And everybody in this country, I think, has been touched by the advances in medical research in one way or another.
What were saying and youre right to say this is a rumour certainly theres been no announcement by the Government. What we are saying is we are having to look very carefully at a whole range of areas of the health budget in the federal budget. Because there are a lot of demands whether they are in whats called the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, whether theyre in research, whether theyre for mental health or for public hospitals all of which are worthy.
JONES: People listening to you are saying, hang on, the Building the Education Revolution wasted billions of dollars. The pink batts in ceilings, even a National Broadband Network which seems unable to afford the tenders that were submitted for the building of it. Were just talking about a piddly amount of money here $400 million over three years at a critical time when of course were recording an increase in lifestyle diseases like obesity and diabetes. Cant you simply say in a $700 million budget thats all they get that that money will be maintained in real terms? Isnt it possible for a Government with some sense of concern about genuine health reform would say, were not going to cut that?
WONG: We are genuinely listening to the concerns that are being put to me, to other Members of Parliament, to other Ministers from this sector. Id make the point and I know you dont agree with this, Alan that the stimulus package that youre talking about was about jobs and did ensure that we didnt put 200,000 Australians on the dole queue.
JONES: Thats not related to this. This is research, Penny. I mean, people in research are terrified, believe me. I mean, these are the people, and theyre listening to you now, and you hold their hopes in your hands because they are in the vanguard of solving problems through local research.
If I could just briefly for the benefit of my listeners, and in particular of you as well, just take you through. For example, the Garvan Institute through its research has been responsible for the life-saving insulin infusion technique to treat a diabetes complication known as ketoacidosis. The cloning of the first human galanin, a brain chemical used to regulate appetite, anxiety and depression. The role of the vitamin D receptor gene and its key role in bone density and osteoporosis. This is just one institute. The discovery of the role of cyclins in breast cancer which is now regarded as one of the 20 most important advances in breast cancer between 1990 and 2000. The role of abdominal fat in determining the risk of Type 2 diabetes. This is just one institute. The identification role played by several genes in the development of asthma. How a stress hormone in the brain can suppress the immune system. The development and commercialised treatment for inflammatory diseases such as arthritis. This is just one instance of one institute with significant breakthrough research. Penny, theyre genuinely terrified.
WONG: I understand that and Im not going to sit here and say to you and dismiss the benefits of research. Quite the opposite. As I said, we are a Government that has put, since we came to Government, more money into this area. And youre right to list the many achievements of just one institute and there are many more.
All we are saying and again, I would emphasise that the Government has made no decisions, certainly no announcements
JONES: Shouldnt the Government make a decision to allay these fears? You know yourself that someone has commenced research now. You pull out money, they have to stop. Now are we going to put our government priority in the way of this kind of change which is beneficial to health? We should be discovering ways in which we keep people out of hospital.
WONG: All Im saying, Alan, is that there are many, many areas of health which are also worthy. Mental health is an area thats worthy. Dental health is an area thats worthy. The Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme that is drugs to treat disease weve added some $4 billion of new expenditure to that.
The unfortunate reality is, across the board, health is growing faster; health costs are growing faster than our economy is growing. So we do have to look very carefully within the health budget and across the Governments budget to work out how we accommodate that.
Now I have heard very clearly and the Government has heard very clearly what you and others in this sector are saying. And we certainly will consider very seriously whats been put to us on this.
JONES: And I appreciate that but Im just saying, when you look at the breakthroughs that was just the Garvan Research Institute but medical research in Australia was responsible for the humidicrib for premature babies, the development of the worlds first heart pacemaker, the bionic ear cochlear implant. Professor Ian Frazers development of the Gardasil vaccine. Thats now used worldwide to protect women against the cervical cancer-causing human papillomavirus. And then those Nobel Laureates Barry Marshall and Robin Warren their pioneering discovery that most stomach ulcers are not caused by stress but by bacteria and can be quickly and easily treated. These are in train now. If you took any money out of that research budget - $400 million over three years many equivalent research projects would have to stop.
WONG: And I can only say what Ive said, Alan, that we have demonstrated our strong support for research by what weve put in since weve come to government. We are very conscious of the sorts of issues that youre putting to us. The Government has not made any announcement on this issue. But I again say there are a great many areas of health which are important. And its very difficult when youre sitting in my chair or Nicola Roxons chair because what comes across your desk in the area of health, theres almost nothing which isnt worthy.
JONES: But your Building the Education Revolution comes across your desk as Finance Minister and the pink batts in ceilings. This is billions of dollars down the drain.
WONG: Ill respond to that. The Home Insulation Program, Alan, we have been completely upfront in saying that was not an acceptable program in the way it was rolled out.
JONES: It was a disaster, it was a disaster.
WONG: And we have done an enormous effort to remediate it and weve copped that.
JONES: But your last Budget had the solar rebate scheme, Penny, to cost $150 million over five years. It ended up costing a billion over 18 months $850 million over budget and researchers are saying, hang on, where do we fit into this?
If I could just take you to another step in relation to that. In that same interview when I spoke to the two professors, I spoke to a man called Kristian Anderson. Hes being treated with a new drug called Erbitux. Its improved his condition, hes got bowel cancer. It costs $2000 a week. Its not available through Pharmaceutical Benefits. But a recommendation was made that Erbitux be listed on the PBS scheme way back in July last year. In late February, your Government decided to defer the listing of Erbitux and seven other medicines and vaccines. Thats despite a recommendation from your own expert advisory committee the Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee that these drugs and vaccines should be listed. When will they be listed?
WONG: Can I just say because I understand the issue of Erbitux has been raised not only with you but with a number of others, and so I just want to put on record the process here. The advice I have is that this is not a drug that works for all bowel cancer patients. It requires a genetic test before it is supposed to be used and currently that genetic test is not funded by Medicare. I understand that the application for the genetic test was not made until October of last year.
And the advice that the Government has is we should be considering the application to put the genetic test onto Medicare as well as the PBS application at the same time. And that we are currently working through the Department of Health is currently working through negotiations with stakeholders, including the sponsor of that genetic test.
JONES: But your own
WONG: We havent rejected that listing. We are just working on how it is we ensure that both the test that goes with it to make sure the drug can work, and the drug, can be considered concurrently.
JONES: But this fellow is saying to me on $2000 a week this could be your father on $2000 a week and he knows that your own expert advisory body, the Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee, said that it should be listed. Now who is the Government to override its own expert advice?
WONG: But were not, Alan. Were not. Ive just told you were not overriding it. We havent rejected it. What we are doing is allowing the Department of Health to work through the genetic test listing arrangements because the drug needs the genetic test in order to target the right patients. So the drug is not being rejected. And this is in the context
JONES: I dont know whos briefing you because your Government signed an agreement with Medicines Australia. And you agreed to make, your Government, a decision on positive PBS recommendations, quote, within a maximum time frame of six months with the six months to be dated from when the pricing was agreed. Thats between your Government and the PBS. Now in the case of Erbitux, it was one of the first test cases of the agreement. That six month period lapsed on the 28th of March.
WONG: And Ive explained to you that Erbitux needs a genetic test to target the patients for whom it will be useful and for whom it will work. And we only received the application for the genetic tests, as Im advised, in October of last year and I understand the Department of Health is working with the sponsor.
JONES: And when will the Department of Health
WONG: Well I hope it will be soon because the Government obviously needs to consider this issue. Can I just say again, weve added 500 new medicines to the PBS
JONES: I understand that.
WONG: Over $4 billion worth. Thats a very substantial investment in this program.
JONES: I understand that. Another medicine deferred is affecting hundreds of thousands of men by denying them, and this was recommended for inclusion, to a PBS treatment for a benign prostate enlargement. The President of the Urological Society, Dr David Malouf, has described it as government policy gone mad. Why was that deferred?
WONG: Can I just say on drugs, this is an area which has cost the expenditure is growing very quickly. And you have to make very clear judgments about what should be funded and what is a priority.
Now the Government has a very good track record in this, Alan. $4 billion worth of additional listing since we came to Government. Thats a very large increase in the number of subsidised medicines in the Australian community. But it is true: we do assess the recommendations before us. And on some occasions where there were existing medicines for certain conditions, the Government has chosen not to agree at this stage to the listing of some medicines.
JONES: But dont you have to weigh up the cost vis--vis the benefits?
WONG: Absolutely.
JONES: Here we have hospitals overcrowded, full up. These medicines have the capacity to keep people out of hospital so there is a cost, yes, but the benefit is almost equivalent to the cost. Were reducing the overall health and hospital budget because weve got excellent drugs which are keeping people out of hospital.
See, you said to me before that youre committed to mental health and I know your Government has said in this term mental health will be a significant priority. But a new schizophrenia drug is also recommended for inclusion, its been deferred. And the executive director of SANE Barbara Hocking said, quote, its not a good step for mental illness and the community as a whole for it to be a political decision rather than an expert committee looking at all the evidence. That drug is being deferred.
WONG: I dont agree that this is a political decision. This is a decision about where we put taxpayers money and where the taxpayers money is best spent. And I understand that everybody in their individual area believes taxpayers money should be spent in their area. But we have a health budget which is a very large proportion of the Federal budget, as you know. I think the second single largest component after social security.
JONES: Overladen with bureaucracy.
WONG: (laughs) Well, Im happy to talk about that at some point.
JONES: But Penny try this
WONG: The point is, is that everybody will say my bit is the most important bit.
JONES: But this is life or death.
WONG: It is.
JONES: The Building the Education Revolution is not life or death. Broadband is not life or death.
WONG: Oh come on, Alan.
JONES: This is life or death.
WONG: Alan
JONES: It is
WONG: Building the Education Revolution
JONES: Its not life or death, Penny!
WONG: was about keeping 200,000 Australians off the dole queues and thats
JONES: Someones trotted that out
WONG: Well thats what Treasury said.
JONES: Its not life and death, right. Now you take
WONG: But that money
JONES: The greater issue facing people listening to you is this chronic and severe pain. Now, heres another medicine Ill just stay with Penny Wong, its 7:30 heres another medicine that is meant to be listed, recommended to be listed. And it hasnt been. Now the director of Pain Australia Professor Michael Cousins said the new medicine would help thousands of cancer patients and others on painkillers by ending the gruelling constipation that opioids cause, now they have to continue to suffer. How would you like it, if it was your family, theyre out there and they know theres a drug, its been recommended for listing. It treats people with chronic and severe pain and the Governments saying weve got to consider it in the budget context.
WONG: What were saying is youve got to look at the whole of the heath budget and work out how you best spend taxpayers money to get the best outcome for Australians. And I understand that people in a particular area, a particular owner of a drug, someone who has a particular interest in something will say these areas have to be protected above all else. All Id say again is weve put more money and listed more medicines on the PBS since we came to government.
JONES: Every government does that, every government does that.
WONG: I dont know if thats the case.
JONES: The woman who compiled the report for your government on health, the future of health, shes the executive director of the Consumer Health Forum Carol Bennett said this, which every person listening to you now would agree with, there are some areas where budgetary considerations should be secondary, our health is one of them. Youve got the AMA Vice President, Dr Steve Hambleton, himself a former member of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee, accusing the Government of politicising the drug approval process. He said in a move thats overt rationing of healthcare.
Now at a time when health is a big issue and we want to cut down the costs of hospitalisation, shouldnt we , you as Finance Minister be saying, hey listen, in terms of priorities lets recommend these, you put these drugs on the PBS which have been recommended because the end result, the benefit will be, there will be fewer and fewer demands on hospitals.
WONG: You do have to look at the ways in which you can reduce demand. This is a subset, Alan, of a bigger issue that all of us have to deal with, and finance ministers have to deal with particularly. Cost in health, health expenditure, is growing faster than the economy. And that really means one of two things. You either have to reduce other parts of the Budget or you have to try and reduce some of that growth in expenditure in health.
Now I dont think anybody could look at what this Governments done since we came to power and say we have not been investing in health. We have. Weve increased investment
JONES: Youve been investing in illness. But this is about health. All that stuffs about illness. This is about removing the illness and putting people back into good health. I would have thought thats where the discretionary dollar ought to be.
WONG: I think there a lot of people who say there should be more work done for example, in preventative health, in primary care. And the Government has made investments in those areas. This is a large and complex area. Its an area where we are seeing increasing demands. And all Im saying is that we have to manage the health budget, a growing health budget under this Government, in the best way we can. And to try and make judgment about how taxpayers funds are best spent.
JONES: OK let me make a final plea to you in simple terms. Were talking about a budget of $700 million which the National Health And Mental Research Council
WONG: Thats not right
JONES: ...the National Health and Mental Research Council
WONG: Oh sorry, the NHMRC.
JONES: are wanting to be maintained in real terms, thats what theyre saying. However, in that budget, only 20 per cent of research grant applications are successful. So already the funding is inadequate in the sense that 80 per cent of the nations potential medical breakthroughs are unsupported. Here is now a real risk that many other important research projects should be cut down. Cant you say as Finance Minister while its on my watch, that will not happen?
WONG: Look I certainly will take on board what youve put to me, Alan. But you know that this is the lot of a finance minister in the lead up to budget. You get a lot of journalists and a lot of people, even though it is Alan Jones, and obviously youve got a lot of weight in this area. But I have a lot of people putting to me, we want you to guarantee something. And I have to say, these are all things well take into account as we put the Budget together.
JONES: OK. Well the great virtue of you coming here is that you heard that case.
WONG: I have heard it very clearly.
JONES: And I do appreciate your listening to the case and I appreciate your understanding this is very, very critical to a lot of people. It could be your mum and dad or my mum and dad.
WONG: Well, I think all of us have had people in our family whove benefited from medical research.
JONES: Thank you for your time.
WONG:Good to be with you.
ENDS