4CA Breakfast with Murray Jones - 14/10/2021

14 October 2021

SUBJECTS: Morrison-Joyce Government division on climate policy; hydrogen energy; relationship with France; Tony Abbott’s Taiwan speech; National Anti-Corruption Commission; IBAC inquiry.

MURRAY JONES, HOST: I feel very lucky this morning. My special guest, in studio is Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs, Penny Wong. Good Morning, welcome to Cairns.

SENATOR PENNY WONG, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Morning Murray and what a beautiful morning it is too.

JONES: We had perfect weather yesterday - just a few showers - but I guess just the climate, the warmth, that must be a nice change for you?

WONG: I mean I was born in Malaysia, so every time I come to a tropical climate, it kind of feels, I relax into it, so it's been great. It was beautiful to wake up to this morning.

JONES: So many things to talk about but I understand that the main focus of your journey to tropical North Queensland is to talk about, particularly the regions, and some of the things that sure we need to change the way that we think, but there's some, some great opportunities - even though some people are still not buying this - with respect to the net zero emissions by 2050. In so many ways, it's actually the regions that will be the beneficiaries of this.

WONG: Absolutely. Look, there's enormous job opportunities that are associated with climate action. I mean climate action does create opportunities. And we've got to move away from the sort of fear of change that Bob Katter and others, and Barnaby Joyce and others want to give us. Look the reality is, and we saw it in Gladstone, just on Sunday with Twiggy and Annastacia Palaszczuk, a billion-dollar hydrogen facility or manufacturing facility to ensure you can make hydrogen. These are the sorts of extraordinary opportunities that we will have, as the world - and the world is moving to a more carbon constrained future - those countries that get that, and make sure we invest in the industries of the future, that's where the job security will come from. That's what we need to do.

JONES: I was talking to Bob Katter just a few days ago, and he was talking about the number of birds that are being killed by the wind turbines - because there are some new projects for the region - and that has been debunked. There are options of even just painting one of the blades and it actually reduces bird strikes by about 70%. But he did talk about, you know, when it comes to coal and steel, our major exports for Australia, you know. There are going to be some slower changes through China and India. Is he making a point with respect to that change, because some of our biggest global export partners are being a little bit slower to change?

WONG: Oh look, I mean, this is a change is going to take time, but the reality is, globally, over time, the world is moving more to renewables than it is to fossil fuel. And so, we've got to make a decision about are we going to be part of that. And I think we should be. And we've got enormous resources. We can be a renewable energy superpower, whether it's wind or solar or hydrogen, these are great opportunities for Australia. But the government's got to give the signal. And if you go out there and talk to the private sector, you go out there and talk to many energy companies, even the major resources companies, all of them understand this is coming. They're already acting on it, they're not waiting for government. What is happening though is we're being held back because we've had years and years of division inside the LNP when it comes to climate. And we're still seeing it.

JONES: It certainly is a situation that you would think that, you know, some of the members of the National Party, KAP, would assist their constituents with respect to the transition because it is inevitable. Instead of fighting back against it, their focus on actually assisting their constituents to move forward, would make so much more sense.

WONG: It's one of the easiest but the least honourable things to do in politics, is to pretend to people that you can stop change and to make people frightened. I don't think the LNP and Barnaby Joyce and Matt Canavan and people like that are actually doing the people who vote for them any favours by pretending that things aren't going to change. Things are changing, and people know that. I think people understand what's happening in the world. People understand what's happening to the climate. People understand what's happening in the economy. And they want some leadership, and they want a path through.

JONES: And obviously with the pandemic you know there is certainly some rather significant changes happening in the world. Let's talk a little bit more about situations that have happened just in the last month or so. AUKUS, you know, obviously our situation with France is very strange. What would Labor do to get that relationship - because it is an important relationship - back on track?

WONG: It is an important relationship. France is still a major power internationally, it's a major Indo-Pacific power. Well, I tell you what we wouldn't do, is we wouldn't break a $90 billion submarine contract by text message, which is how Scott Morrison informed President Macron. Look, I think the Government should take the advice Julie Bishop gave Marise Payne yesterday, which is she should be winging her way to Paris to try and resolve this. It's been pretty poorly handled, and I think the reason it's been poorly handled is just, yet again, we've got a Prime Minister, Mr Morrison, he always wants the announcement, so he doesn't do the whole job. And the whole job was making sure that Australia's interests were looked after as we walked away from the largest contract we've ever entered into. We needed to do that. Now, we accept where they want to head on the submarines but how you do it matters to Australia's interests.

JONES: And that's certainly the case with respect to what's been a long-term partner but a major change and it's also going to be a very expensive change for Australia, as well. But getting that relationship back on track as part of that overall picture of moving forward, really important.

Just before we come on to some domestic matters. What about Tony Abbott he said he's copped a "despicable and insane performance" in Taiwan. He was called a "failed and pitiful politician" by the Chinese. I don't know whether you agree?

WONG: No look, I don't think it's helpful to speak about people like that. You can address what they say rather than their personal attributes. Look, Tony is Tony, you know, and he is still being Tony, we all know what he's like.

JONES: A coordinated approach with respect to foreign affairs instead of ex-PMs basically going off and taking this on their own accord, it is a bit of a concern though?

WONG: This is a pretty challenging time. I reckon it's one of the most difficult times for Australia in terms of where international politics, foreign policy is, in decades - probably since the end of World War II. And so, we've got to keep our heads and we're got to work our way through what is a pretty challenging situation carefully and soberly. My concern about how the Government handles it is I think sometimes they want to beat the drum too much and that just makes some difficult situations more difficult.

JONES: Let's move on to domestic matters particularly an anti-corruption commission here in Australia. As proposed by the Coalition Government it's more likely to conceal corruption in government, than shed light on it. Is Labor committed to instituting an agency with teeth, that is transparent, holds public hearings and publishes its findings to the to the broader Australian public?

WONG: We've been campaigning for an anti-corruption commission for years now. And it's taken Scott Morrison, what is it, over 1000 days before they've even put one forward? And as you said, it's not enough and I think I think people are tired of this. They're tired of stories like Christian Porter, who says he can take a million bucks in anonymous donations. They're tired of seeing ministers like Angus Taylor, using forged documents and not fronting up to it. We do need some accountability and we're prepared to be very clear about the need for a corruption commission, and making sure there's one with teeth. And Mark Dreyfus, our Shadow Attorney-General has been very diligent about working with stakeholders and working with experts to make sure that if we do win government. We do have an anti-corruption commission that can do the job.

JONES: In some ways, a double-edged sword and the leader Anthony Albanese has been accused in the last couple of days of not acting with respect to the issues that have arisen with Victorian parliamentarians. At the end of the day, I guess do you accept it is a double-edged sword, it can actually come back to bite you as well?

WONG: With Victoria, can I just say, what's happening in that branch is not acceptable. I think the process of the Commission in Victoria is making sure that a stop is put to that, as did Anthony. When he found out about the branch stacking, he intervened in the branch, he installed a couple of very trusted, respected Labor elders, Steve Bracks and Jenny Macklin to run the branch, he intervened in the preselections, and they're doing an independent audit. It's very different to what Scott Morrison did when similar allegations were made in the Liberal Party in Victoria, including against a Minister, Mr Sukkar, they didn't do anything.

JONES: It's certainly some interesting times ahead with respect to what must be a federal election not too far away around the corner, and certainly some big changes required, I think here in Australia. I think we're seeing that seismic shift occurring on a daily basis. Welcome to the tropical North. Thank you so much for spending the time and coming in and saying good morning, as well.

WONG: It's great to be with you. Thank you for the time and a shout out to your mom Eileen.

JONES: Good on you! She'll be very impressed with that. Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs Penny Wong have a wonderful day. Cheers.

Authorised by Paul Erickson, ALP, Canberra.