SUBJECTS: Adelaide’s International Women’s Day breakfast; Russia’s invasion of Ukraine; Australia’s relationship with China; Mr Morrison playing political games with national security.
WILL GOODINGS, HOST: We spoke with some fascinating people yesterday about International Women's Day. A big breakfast is taking place in Adelaide on Friday. It'll be hosted by our next guest, the Leader of the Federal Labor Party in the Senate, South Australian Senator Penny Wong. Senator Wong. Good morning to you.
SENATOR PENNY WONG, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Good morning. Good to be with you guys. How are you?
DAVID PENBERTHY, HOST: We're good, thanks Penny. Now in the last month, the world has become a much more uncertain and unpleasant place, Penny. And you obviously wear the cap as the Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs, for the Federal Opposition. On Ukraine, this is a very broad question, but it's something that I reckon exercises a lot of people's minds right now and you watch those harrowing scenes of civilians being slaughtered in the streets. Do you think that the western world is doing enough?
WONG: It's really hard, isn't it? Because there are some very difficult assessments leaders have to make including the sort of risk of escalation with a nuclear power. And what Russia is doing, what Putin is doing is horrific, illegal - invading another country and attacking the cities and homes of civilians in a territory that is not theirs. So, the world does have to respond, and some very good things have happened. We've seen very comprehensive sanctions, continuing to be added to. We've seen a shift in position in NATO, and particularly Germany, being prepared for the first time in decades to send military assistance, and that is weapons and munitions and so forth, into a conflict zone. So, there is a shift. But in terms of escalation and sending troops in, NATO powers including the United States and Germany have made clear that they're not putting troops on the ground. And that's a hard calculation, isn't it? It's a decision they've made to support the Ukrainians defending their country, and to impose what we hope will be crippling economic sanctions on Mr Putin.
GOODINGS: Senator, do you think it's exposed any sort of naivete in us and by us, I mean, the West with regard to things like the idea that, you know, economic interdependency leads to an environment where there isn't likely to be conflict and things like, well, you know, countries wanting to jump into NATO like Poland did, since 1998 and perhaps Ukraine wanted to do recently, oh that won't quite, that won't lead to all that war and conflict. Are some of these sort of naive assumptions that have been baked into our strategic thinking, that have been exposed, do you think?
WONG: I think it's less that - I mean, I don't think it's naive to think that there is some merit to trading with each other. I think what the reality is, that we have to be very clear eyed about, is you've got some leaders at the moment, Mr Putin is foremost amongst them who have basically said these laws, these arrangements, these agreements between countries which were forged in the aftermath of the most horrific war that the world has ever seen, World War II, where we agreed we would not do this again, rules which have ensured that we have lived through the most peaceful and prosperous period in human history - he's torn them up. And we have, unfortunately, the UN Security Council hasn't done what it should have done. You know, what was envisaged to be done under the UN Charter. So that does mean you have got to look at different ways of pressing back, of pushing back, and being hard and clear in the face of this sort of aggression. And that means working with other nations. I think the good thing about the Western responses, the responses to Mr Putin is how widespread it is, and that there are economic sanctions, pressure, diplomatic pressure from all over the world.
PENBERTHY: Penny, we've seen a lot of attacks on Labor over the last month from the Federal Government on foreign policy, specifically on Labor's position on China. Do you think that the Government is trying to sort of amplify points of difference, or even create apparent points of difference in order to turn the looming federal election into a sort of national security imbued rerun of what we saw with Howard in 2001?
WONG: I certainly reckon Mr Morrison doesn't like it when people actually agree with him. I certainly think he always tries to create division and difference even when none exists. And I think he is much, much keener to talk about submarines off into the distance or national security issues than he is to talk about some of his failures. He is a bloke with a reflex to playing politics. The reality is - you know, I've been on your show before talking about our view about China - we understand China's become much more assertive and much more aggressive and that that has necessitated a change in Australia's stance and foreign policy position, and national security position and in every step on that path Labor has given the bipartisan support that the country deserves.
GOODINGS: Do you think this crisis will cause the world to pause momentarily and be a little bit more strategic about the way in which we move towards cleaner energy sources? Because certainly in Europe, a big part of the problem that we've seen has been dependence on Russian gas, and countries like Germany and Italy and others that have gone away from more polluting energy sources that have found themselves suddenly in quite a predicament. Do we have to factor in the changing strategic environment into the way in which we source our energy?
WONG: I look I mean, this is a global economic shock, isn't it? With Russia being a large supplier of crude oil and gas, as you said, to other parts of the world, particularly Europe. But over time, one of the things you can do to make sure you hedge against, you try to manage, to make sure you're more resilient against these sorts of economic and strategic shocks, is to diversify. And so having more sources of energy, including sources of energy from other nations, but in your own country is obviously one of the ways you diversify and hedge against becoming too dependent on a single supplier of energy. Another way of looking at it, is that people will see the strategic merit in making sure they diversify their energy sources and become less reliant on resources from a particular country, in this case, Russia.
PENBERTHY: I think it's one of the good things about South Australia right now is that there's bipartisan acceptance that renewables are the way of the future and we're heading towards a position where we'll derive 75% of the state's power from wind and solar within a few years which is excellent news.
WONG: It is excellent news, and it's also pretty funny because I can remember the Liberals having a real go at Jay Weatherill's Labor Government when we went down this path and now everyone's converted.
PENBERTHY: I think when the old transmission tower got knocked down, that was a bit of a flashpoint for that. Hey Penny, before we let you go, you're obviously speaking this Friday at the International Women's Day breakfast. I understand the event is being held online, you're going to be joined by Grace Tame as well. The former, immediate past Australian of the Year. What's your, in a nutshell, what's your key message for the breakfast on Friday?
WONG: Well, a couple of things - first, this is 30 years, this is our 30th anniversary and we are the biggest breakfast in the country and it's been a part of the Adelaide calendar for three decades now and we are really grateful for the support. We're the biggest breakfast in Australia, which is a huge, a huge achievement for the community. International Women's Day is a time to both look backwards and forwards. We look at what we've achieved, all the wonderful women and men who've gone before, who've helped make equality more real. And we look ahead and remember how much more we have to do about sexual assault, violence against women and how much less women earn over their lifetimes than men. So we are going virtual because of the COVID restrictions which were in place. We raise a lot of money, that goes to UN Women - to women and girls in developing countries. So head to adelaideiwdbreakfast.com.au and buy a ticket, support a good cause, and listen to Grace Tame, who is really such an extraordinary young Australian.
PENBERTHY: Good stuff. Penny Wong, always love having you on the show. Thank you for joining us this morning.
WONG: Great to be with you.
Authorised by Paul Erickson, ALP, Canberra.
