KING: From coal-seam gas to politicians workloads, lets go Inside Canberra now. This morning, welcome to Finance Minister Penny Wong. Good morning.
WONG: Good morning Madonna.
KING: And deputy Opposition leader in the Senate, George Brandis. Good to have you back, Senator.
BRANDIS: Good morning Madonna.
KING: How cold is Canberra this morning?
WONG: Not too bad.
BRANDIS: No, its not too bad.
WONG: It was 8 degrees or something this morning.
KING: Well there you go, there you go. In Queensland thats freezing.
WONG: It was minus 7, I think, on one of the nights leading up to the Budget, so that was cold.
KING: Well look, what I want to start on is coal seam gas. This is a huge issue, it appears, with my listeners here in Queensland. More than 1000 permits being granted. Now that of course isnt licenses. But I just want to know where both of you think this fits into the carbon debate.
And if I start with you Penny Wong, isnt there a risk coal in any form is a disaster waiting to happen? One of my listeners says, a spokesperson for the industry says this is so much more environmentally friendly. Whats your view on coal seam gas?
WONG: Well gas is a more energy efficient, less carbon-intensive fuel than coal. And this is an important industry for Australia, and for the world. The world has increasing energy needs. We want to move increasingly towards lower emissions energy. So, energy that is less polluting, and this industry is an important facet to that.
KING: So is your support for it driven on what it can add to the economy in terms of revenue and jobs, or is it because it is more environmentally friendly?
WONG: Well I think its both, and we have to continue to manage that transition to cleaner fuels. This is an important industry for it. I mean, this is a tough transition over time the globe has got to make, and Australia has got to make. And we do have to move from cheaper, more polluting forms of energy to energy thats less polluting.
KING: Do you have any concerns about coal seam gas, or any of the leaks that weve seen in Brisbane, in Queensland?
WONG: Obviously you always have to have, in any industry, the proper environmental protections in terms of how its explored for, how its extracted. But its important for us to move to cleaner forms of energy.
And can I say, and I think even the Opposition agrees with this, we saw Greg Hunt last night on the ABC saying theyd also want to move to cleaner forms of energy. Obviously, they just want taxpayers to fund it.
KING: Lets go to Senator George Brandis, he can speak for the Opposition. Senator George Brandis, on coal seam gas specifically, given its impact on Queensland, where does the Opposition sit? Does it support carte blanche? What are your concerns?
BRANDIS: No its not a support carte blanche. Theres not a lot that Penny said that I would disagree with. We do think that Australia should develop its coal seam gas industry, and Pennys right when she says that gas is a more efficient and less carbon-intensive fuel than, obviously, coal. However, the LNPs position as Campbell Newman articulated recently is that this development shouldnt come at any cost. And in particular, there has to be a balancing of interests. This is essentially a planning issue between the interests of the local landowners and farmers, and the interests of those seeking exploration licenses. Now Im sure, you know, were all aware of how vexed this issue has been in local communities, in south-central Queensland. What were committed to do is getting the balance of interests right between the interests of local landowners and the interests of the industry. So it is an interesting
KING: So
BRANDIS: If I may finish, it is an industry we would like to see develop, but not at any cost
KING: Alright, but
BRANDIS: And there are special considerations for occupants of prime agricultural land.
KING: Yes, but is your support, then, economically driven, what it can do for the economy. Or is it on environmental grounds?
BRANDIS: Well, I think thats a bit if I may say so with respect a false distinction. It is a good fuel. Gas is a good fuel, so there are environmental benefits. But it is also an industry with tremendous economic potential, and tremendous potential therefore for job creation in Queensland. So, we really support it on both bases.
KING: Do either of you know why the moratorium was introduced in New South Wales?
WONG: Look, my recollection is there were some issues in relation to water, particularly. And I recall when I was Water Minister we did put some money into funding some studies and research to see whether there were additional environmental protections that needed to be put in place there. But look, Im not across the details of that.
KING: Yeah, alright, thank you. We will try to get to the bottom of that in coming days. So lets go from coal seam gas to something, that is, something that people are split on, to something that on cigarettes. And everyone thinks theyre bad for you, but how you stop people smoking seems to be at the centre of the latest debate. And George Brandis, can I ask you this: do you think were set now to have plain packaged cigarettes?
BRANDIS: I think that debate is still going on, Madonna. Everybody wants to see the smoking rate fall. It fell sharply under the Howard Government, from 22% to 17%, in particular as a result of the decision that that government made when Tony Abbott was Health Minister to put those graphic warnings on tobacco packaging. But the Government is prosecuting this issue, and well wait and see. We in the Coalition will wait and see the legislation and how invasive it is of property rights, for example
KING: Yeah, you say that, but isnt that
BRANDIS: - before we make a commitment.
KING: Thats a pretty easy way out, though. Youve got the Nationals there, MP Tony Crook expected to support, Labor, and some Liberal MPs reportedly going to cross the floor to vote with the Federal Government. Thats creating a headache for you though, isnt it?
BRANDIS: No, thats what we do in this building everyday when Parliament is sitting. We debate issues, we debate them in the chamber across party lines, but we also both Labor and the Coalition debate issues within our own partyrooms. That is our thats what Parliament is for. Now, we are having a discussion in the Coalition at the moment. Theres been a discussion about it in the Labor Party. Were waiting to see legislation, which we havent yet seen, and when we see it, well make a final decision.
KING: But youre not denying that some of your own are preparing to cross the floor and vote with Labor on this issue.
BRANDIS: Well, I dont know that thats right. For example there was a report in the Fairfax papers yesterday that certain named Liberal MPs were proposing to cross the floor, and one of those named Liberal MPs stood up in our partyroom yesterday and said that report is entirely false.
KING: So you dont
BRANDIS: So I dont accept that at all.
KING: Alright, Ill come back to you in a moment. But Penny Wong, your view here.
WONG: Well, first, the legislation is out for the Coalition to see. The Health Minister has released it, and this policy has been in place for some time. The Governments not discussing it anymore. Weve got a very clear position internally.
Its quite clear that the Liberal Party are completely divided on this issue. Weve seen Barnaby Joyce and others come out and say they oppose it. Weve also seen Mal Washer and others reportedly saying they will cross the floor to support it and calling on other doctors and other people inside the Liberal Party to support it. It is a very odd situation where we have a political party that is so divided on an issue that is so clear in terms of the public health.
And you know, lets be frank, this is a political party also that has continued to take donations from big tobacco, hasnt joined with the Labor Party in saying were not going to take donations from this industry. And I think that is a shame.
BRANDIS: Well look, because this is a legitimate and serious issue of public health, I did try and not to score any cheap political points in my answer, Madonna, but
KING: No, you were quite political.
BRANDIS: Heavens above Penny. I mean, if you want to go down that path, how much does the Labor Party take from the Canberra Workers Club which has one of the biggest pokie machine operations in Australia? So I mean, neither side is covered in virtue when it comes to accepting political donations.
KING: Alright, Im moving on from that though. But lets take politics totally out of it. Lets not pit poker machines against cigarettes. Just genuinely, both of you, the plain package cigarettes forget the politics, forget whos going to vote what way is there research showing that plain package cigarettes might work? Or is it aimed at trying to stop current smokers or to make cigarettes packages, Penny Wong, look uncool for those teenagers who might be thinking about taking it up?
WONG: Well obviously this is a world first. And so you have to recognise that we are doing this ahead of the rest of the world and its actually had a lot of interest in other countries. But I think it comes back to a few things. First, tobacco companies are fighting it tooth and nail, as weve seen. I wouldve thought if they thought it would have no effect on their business, they would probably wave it through.
The second thing is, we know businesses market. They market their products and what this does is remove one of the mechanisms for marketing, which is the labelling. And that is why Nicola Roxon has taken this forward because it is the best way of dealing with smoking, the percentage of people smoking is to reduce the number of people taking it up.
KING: OK but in your own admission there, Penny Wong, we dont know if it will work. Its an Australian first. I mean a world first.
WONG: I think the evidence is pretty clear for the reasons I outlined.
KING: Yeah OK.
WONG: That once you take away a marketing mechanism for a product, that is a good thing if youre trying to get fewer people buying that product.
KING: George Brandis, would you concede that it would make it less attractive for someone to smoke if they bought the cigarettes in just an olive green packet?
BRANDIS: Well I dont know. Having never been a smoker myself, I simply dont know. And what Penny is pleased to describe as evidence is not evidence at all. Its a supposition. It may or may not be right. But its not an evidence-based supposition. Now the fact is, there is a variety of considerations at work here. There are some members of the medical profession, by the way, and people with greater expertise in public health than either Penny or me, who say that plain packaging will be ineffective and that there are other ways to address the public health issues here. Now
KING: Whats the harm in trying? Whats the harm in supporting this and seeing if it does lead to a reduction?
BRANDIS: Well I dont think thats the right way to approach public policy. I think the right way to approach public policy is not to just throw something up in the air to see if it works. The right approach
WONG: Madonna, can I just I mean, I think George has outlined his view about this. Can I just say I think Senator Joyce really belled the cat on those in the Liberal Party who oppose this when he said this is stealing the intellectual property of tobacco companies. That is what is driving those MPs, by his own admission, those MPs opposed to this.
So George put forward I dont agree with him but its a reasonable argument. But the reality is the people behind him dont have that view. They have a view that what the Government is doing is taking a property away from big tobacco. Now I dont think thats a reasonable proposition.
KING: Is that a fair summary of how some members of your party think, George Brandis?
BRANDIS: Well, I dont know how all the members of my party think. But its a fair summary. I mean I agree with Barnaby Joyce to this extent; that the protection of intellectual property rights is a consideration in this debate.
You cant just take peoples property away without compensation and corporations have as much right to the protection of the laws as private citizens. And I think it is very, very glib with respect to say that the protection of property rights is not a factor to be weighed in the balancing act.
KING: OK well weve got both sides views there, and its something we havent talked about much. So if it is something that you want to have a chat about after 10 1300 222 612 whether you are a smoker or perhaps youre a mum, a dad, a grandparent who has got your fingers crossed, your child, grandchild wont take up smoking. Will this influence them, do you think? Youre with Senators Penny Wong and George Brandis going Inside Canberra this morning. And can we go to the next issue, and this is a report by Julie Owens on federal politicians and whether the workload and the environment under which federal politicians work could be made more friendly. Do you agree with that? George Brandis.
BRANDIS: No, not really, though, because I think people elect us and pay us a handsome wage to do a job and I dont think anybody should complain about the way in which we are expected or the conditions under which we are expected to work. But can I make this broader observation, Madonna. One thing that struck me when I first became a Senator about a decade ago, having been a barrister for some years before that, is how many important decisions this isnt a party political point because it applies to government and opposition and whoevers in government and whoevers in opposition how many very important decisions are made under immense pressure of time. As Penny and I both know, you spend your days in this building. You arrive early, you leave very late close to midnight and you barely get time to catch your breath because youre going from one meeting to another and considering a great variety of different issues. So there is certainly enormous pressure of time and Im sure that on occasions that impinges on the quality of the decision making.
KING: Penny Wong, does George Brandis make good sense there?
WONG: Yes look, I think that last point particularly of Georges I would agree with. I havent read the report. I saw reports of the report and I think it related primarily to the change of procedures in the House of Representatives and so unfortunately, youve got a couple of Senators so were probably not experts on that.
KING: Neither of you feel as if youre overworked for your pay packets?
WONG: I think, well Im a Minister, and so Ive just been through a Budget and you work pretty hard for that. So you should. I mean youre putting the federal budget together and thats a big job and you need to make sure you do it right. But I think Georges point is a good one. Sometimes, there are decisions which are made which I think would benefit from perhaps a little bit more.
KING: OK, several other issues Id love to get through this morning. First of all, Penny Wong. Did Wayne Swan tell a porkie over this royalty issue in Western Australia, over whether he was aware Western Australia would lift royalties in its budget?
WONG: No he did not. I mean its quite clear that the Premier has made, Premier Barnett made clear on I think seven occasions that he wasnt going to do this.
I dont think a phone call to the Chief of Staff of the Treasurer telling them that this is what has been done and is in the budget we are announcing constitutes consultation. Its a pity that Premier Barnett has kicked an own goal for political purposes.
KING: OK, George Brandis can I quickly ask you does it matter? Does it have any real influence on public debate?
BRANDIS: Of course it matters if the Treasurer lies to the Parliament and the Treasurer did lie to the Parliament yesterday and he lied to the public before it because its as clear as can be and anybody who has any doubt about it, should simply look at the documents and information reported in all the newspapers this morning that Mr Barnett and Mr Barnetts office made Mr Swan and his office well aware of the Western Australian Governments intentions weeks ago and Mr Swan specifically said that wasnt so and hes been caught in a lie. The Labor Party, let me quickly make this point Madonna
KING: Quickly.
BRANDIS: The Labor Party are so embarrassed about this that yesterday they took the near to unprecedented step of moving a gag -
WONG: Oh come on.
BRANDIS: - to stop the Leader of the Opposition addressing the issue in the Parliament. They tried to close it down as fast as possible. KING: Penny Wong, you did do that though didnt you in the House of Reps?
WONG: Can I say that gags and dissents and a whole range of other parliamentary procedures are moved by Tony Abbott and his side of politics all the time. So this is not unusual but I think the issue here is we can talk about what the Opposition wants to talk about which is who called whom when? But the real policy issues that matter to Australians are that the Opposition doesnt support a mining tax that even miners are prepared to pay for.
KING: I wasnt asking you about those issues so Im going to move on. It was on royalty and I gave you a right of reply but while you talk about Parliament, I understand Kevin Rudd is in Parliament this week but hes been labelled in one paper this morning the Minister for Foreign Airfares hes done the equivalent of a one way trip to the moon. Now some people will say this is the job hes paid for, hes the Foreign Affairs Minister and he should be doing it. Other people would say in this age of technology, isnt this something he could do a lot more of by phone. Penny Wong?
WONG: Well I think Id say what you just said Madonna, I think this is what hes paid to do. I mean Foreign Ministers are there to engage with the rest of the world and Ive been in a job where part of my job involved some diplomacy and face to face discussions with people, particularly when youre talking about your cross cultural engagements, not just me ringing George, is really important in terms of furthering Australias national interest.
KING: George Brandis, could more of this be done on the phone? Or do you support Kevin Rudd, I think hes done 385,000 kilometres since becoming the Minister for Foreign Affairs.
BRANDIS: I think Foreign Ministers should travel and they need to travel a lot. I think Mr Rudd travels more than usual even in that office. But I think the real reason Mr Rudd is in Australia this week is because Julia Gillard is in Australia this week. If Julia Gillard were in Washington, Mr Rudd would be bobbing up in Washington to try and take some of the media attention away from her just as when Julia Gillard was in London a couple of weeks ago for the Royal Wedding, Kevin Rudd bobbed up low an behold to try and suck some of the media oxygen away from Julia Gillard.
KING: Penny Wong, would you like to say something there?
WONG: Well I just thought, if were going to go down this path, we can talk about Joe Hockey ringing Tony Abbott and balling him out for hanging him out to try. You want to talk about people getting. -
BRANDIS: Thats a nonsense.
WONG: I think its really interesting that at least Joe Hockey is recognising that the Opposition needs to do something other than just say no. He gets told off, he gets belted by Tony Abbott when he does, thats the reality.
BRANDIS: I attend a meeting involving Joe Hockey and Tony Abbott at 8:30am every morning. And Ive never seen such bromance in the air.
WONG: You know thats a very scary thought.
KING: Bromance? (laughter)
WONG: Im not sure Tony Abbott would like you saying that.
KING: Im just wondering who gave you that.
BRANDIS: They get on famously.
KING: I was going to talk about
WONG: Breaking news Madonna - a bromance between Abbott and Hockey. They had a bit of a tiff I reckon then last week over the family trusts issue when Hockey got told to pull his head in.
BRANDIS: Thats the problem Penny. I know theres a climate of hatred in this Government. And the Foreign Minister and the Prime Minister wont even speak to each other. But we in the Liberal Party are actually friends with each other.
WONG: Thats just not true.
KING: So a bromance is between men is it?
BRANDIS: Apparently. I think thats the -
KING: And a romance is between a man and a woman? No, its between two females, two males or a male and a female?
BRANDIS: I think
WONG: I think this has become very interesting actually.
BRANDIS: I think this goes back to the days of the Sydney Uni Rugby Club Madonna, theyre great pals.
KING: Im glad you used that word rugby because that gives me an escape to the final topic and thats our Rugby League in the State of Origin. Penny Wong, youre on the spot here, are you going for the right team tonight?
WONG: You know, Im from South Australia and we do the AFL thing but Wayne Swan is a very good mate of mine and think his expectation as a loyal friend of his is to back his team. So Ill be going for the right team.
JOURNALST: You may just win a few votes on the back of that up here. Senator George Brandis youre not going to shock us with anything other than going for Queensland?
BRANDIS: No, I think Queensland is a pretty particularly strong side this year. And I expect them to win tonight.
KING: Brett has just sent me this email, its a complaint to the ABC. The ABC is supposed to be apolitical and unbiased and as such Im shocked that you Madonna showed your personal bias when chipping Michael because he supports the Blues. When 40 per cent of Queenslanders come from south of the border.
Senators Penny Wong and George Brandis, great to talk to you, look forward to doing it again next week.
WONG: Thanks very much Madonna.
BRANDIS: Thanks Penny.
WONG: Thanks George.
KING: Thats the Finance Minister Penny Wong and the Deputy Opposition Leader in the Senate, George Brandis.
ENDS