RAFAEL EPSTEIN: Penny Wong is the Finance Minister at the moment in Julia Gillards Government. She joins us now. Good afternoon.
WONG: Good afternoon. Its good to be with you.
EPSTEIN: Look I want to ask you a few things about what Julia Gillard has finally said about the period when you were Minister for Climate Change. But before we get there, who are you going to be voting for on Monday?
WONG: Ive made it very clear Im supporting Julia Gillard. I think shes the right person to lead the country and the party, and ultimately the choice we have to make is who do we think should be Prime Minister of the country, and I believe its Prime Minister Gillard.
EPSTEIN: Is she right that Kevin Rudd was incredibly dysfunctional as Prime Minister? Was that your experience?
WONG: Well look, I served, as you said, in Kevin Rudds Cabinet. And I now serve in Prime Minister Gillards Cabinet. And obviously my experience of that has informed my judgement, and my judgement is that it is Prime Minister Gillard who I will be supporting and who is the right person to lead the nation.
EPSTEIN: But is it the case that she had to do more and more, and that senior bureaucrats and senior people in Cabinet were going to Julia Gillard and saying the wheels are coming off. Is that what it was like?
WONG: There were a lot of challenges through that period. But what I would say is obviously Ive had the experience of both Cabinets and both Prime Ministers, both leaders, and thats informed my judgement about who Ill be supporting, and that person is Prime Minister Gillard.
EPSTEIN: One of the reasons that the wheels came off Kevin Rudds Prime Ministership is there was that story in the Sydney Morning Herald that the carbon pricing scheme that you helped design was effectively put on ice by the Prime Minister. Firstly, was that true that Kevin Rudd decided, listen, we have to put climate change on the backburner. Is that correct?
WONG: I think its on the public record that the decision was made by the then-leader to defer the emissions trading scheme. Thats not new news. What has subsequently occurred, and Im very pleased that it has, is that Prime Minister Gillard has delivered a price on carbon through a minority government and a hung parliament. Thats a pretty tough reform, just like shes delivered the mining tax in order to get more of the benefit of the boom spread to all Australians.
EPSTEIN: Were speaking to Penny Wong. Its coming up to twenty-two minutes past five. If you can, I just want you to have a listen. Martin Ferguson had a bit of a go at some of your Cabinet colleagues about what people have been saying about Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard.
MARTIN FERGUSON: My simple message to some of my colleagues, given statements over the last week to fortnight, is that you better be very careful what you say publicly. We should not be seeking to assassinate one another or deflect on the strengths and weaknesses of one another. Because in essence some of the comments of recent times have, in essence, created the fodder and written the Coalition advertisements for the next election.
EPSTEIN: Penny Wong, is Martin Ferguson right? That people like Simon Crean have effectively handed over, and Wayne Swans statement, that was kind of both barrels last night, have they just handed the Liberal Party a huge advantage at the next election?
WONG: No. What hands the Liberal Party and Tony Abbott a huge advantage is a Labor Party which is not united behind its leader, and not focused on governing for the nation. We have to resolve this matter on Monday once and for all.
We have delivered some very good things in Government. If you look at the 700,000 plus jobs that have been created since we came to Government, this is a good thing. But these achievements have been obscured by the sort of squabbling weve seen.
Weve got to get on with the job and focus not just on what weve done, but all the work we have yet to do to deliver for working Australians.
EPSTEIN: Youre just determined, youre determined not to say anything negative about Kevin Rudd arent you?
WONG: No, Ive made very clear Ive made a judgement about who is better to run the country, and it is Prime Minister Gillard, and that is who I will be supporting. But what I also think is that Mr Rudd should do what the Prime Minister has done which is said that she will accept the result on Monday, and if she is not elected as leader that she would go to the backbench and she would ensure that she gave full support to whoever is elected the Labor leader. The same sort of commitment should be made by Kevin Rudd.
EPSTEIN: You back obviously the climate change scheme you designed. Did Julia Gillard also argue that climate change should be shelved while Kevin Rudd was Prime Minister?
WONG: Rafael, you should know me well enough Ive been around for a bit now that I never discuss the internal decision making processes of Government. But I think you should judge people on what they have delivered and what they have done.
In extraordinarily difficult circumstances Prime Minister Gillard has delivered the price on carbon; that is a very difficult reform. And she did it not just in a minority Government, but also in a ferocious and dishonest scare campaign from Tony Abbott. I think that shows her commitment to doing something about to move Australia to a low pollution economy.
EPSTEIN: You must have almost been pulling your hair out though over the last few weeks with all this campaign that wasnt going on. Surely thats incredibly frustrating?
WONG: I dont think anybody watching whats occurred in recent times would have seen anything other than theres been a fair bit of destabilising going on. Thats why Im so emphatic about making sure that this Monday, we resolve it. And I think the more of us in the Party that make that clear the better. I think thats what Australians would expect of us.
EPSTEIN: It was interesting to me to see both Kevin Rudd and his wife There Rein asking people to call their Labor MPs and get them to urge a vote for Mr Rudd. In the old days leadership battles were all about caucus votes. I just want you to have a quick listen to Therese Rein.
THERESE REIN: What ordinary people tell me is that they trust Kevin and they respect him. They know how hard he worked after the 2007 election and in the lead up to that. They know how hard he worked during the global financial crisis. They know hes committed. They know hes worked hard as a Foreign Minister and tried to do the very best he could do. And sometimes and I think its useful for people to tell their local MP, if thats a Labor MP, and to tell their local Labor Senator, look this is what I want. This is what I want you to hear me, and this is what I want.
EPSTEIN: Thats Therese Rein, Kevin Rudds wife. Penny Wong, the Finance Minister, is enduring this for us. Any idea? Do you think Tim Mathieson needs to come out and support Julia Gillard? Do you think its orchestrated?
WONG: Look, Im absolutely not commenting on peoples families, and what peoples partners say. Im just not going into that
EPSTEIN: What about the calls for people to call up
WONG: What I would say is this. Im a member of the Federal Labor Caucus. These are difficult times. And the judgement I have to make, like all of my colleagues, is who they believe is the best person to lead the nation. Its not a polling contest, its not a contest about personalities, its about who should lead the nation. Its a very serious choice. And I do take that very seriously ... I do take that very seriously. And I am very clear in my view that the best person for that job is Prime Minister Gillard.
EPSTEIN: MPs and Senators represent voters though, dont they? They should, do you think, listen to the calls and emails that might come in over the weekend? Is that something they should take heed of?
WONG: We are all elected and we all listen to the range of different views that are put to us by the people who elect us. But ultimately, we are also elected to make decisions about the best interests of the country. And this is one of those decisions.
EPSTEIN: Do you believe that Kevin Rudd, if he loses on Monday, would stop any sort of campaign or any sort of destabilisation that hes been accused of?
WONG: Well, he should. He should. Just as the Prime Minister has said, we should ensure that Monday resolves this issue once and for all.
EPSTEIN: Do you think your positions recoverable? Do you think you can actually win the next election if youve had that fight?
WONG: I think the first thing is that youve got to govern well, and youve got to govern in the interests of the nation. And thats the most important thing about being in Government, to do the right thing, as a Labor Government, for working Australians and their families.
EPSTEIN: But you can only do the things you want to do if youre in power.
WONG: You can only do the things you want to do if youre able to govern well, and you can only be competitive at an election if you are unified. So, again I say we need to resolve this on Monday.
EPSTEIN: OK, Penny Wong, appreciate you taking the time. Thank you, have fun on Monday.
WONG: (laughs) A bundle of laughs Im sure. Good to be with you.
ENDS