HENSCHKE: Penny Wong, thanks for joining us this morning. Clearly, thats something youre going to have to deal with as they say in politics, moving forward.
WONG: You know, this is politics, I suppose. Ive made it pretty clear Ian, that this is a deeply personal matter, and Im not going to comment on what Tom said, and Im not going to comment more generally. This is about my family.
HENSCHKE: Yes, and on the other hand, we had an interview with Mike Rann a bit earlier and he said hes come out in support of gay marriage, so its clearly a mixed bag here in South Australia at the moment.
WONG: Lots of different views.
HENSCHKE: Different views. Lets get to the big issue of the day, the carbon tax being passed through. Now, youve got Tony Abbott saying it doesnt matter that its passed, hes going to turn it over.
WONG: Hes said a lot of things, hasnt he? He used to say he thought a carbon tax was the way to go, he used to say that the Liberal Party should pass the emissions trading scheme, and he was part of the Howard Cabinet that signed off on an emissions trading scheme prior to the 2007 election. So he pretends hes a conviction politician on this, but really the only thing hes been a conviction politician about is doing what he thinks is politically necessary.
This is a big day today, this is an historic day, and the Prime Minister has done an extraordinary job to pass a reform that is so bitterly opposed through the House of Representatives when we are a minority Government. Its a very important day for Australia.
HENSCHKE: Now a number of other bills associated with it were passed as well. Do you want to just quickly tell us what they will mean, for example the steel industry?
WONG: The steel industry plan is about recognising that our steel industry is having a tough time at the moment, primarily driven by the high dollar, although we have seen that come off a bit in recent times. But the high dollar puts a lot of pressure on different manufacturers, different exporters, and the steel industry is amongst those.
The Government agreed that we would allow the funds which were set aside for the steel industry under the carbon price to be utilised to help the steel industry, and we believe its important. Its about supporting jobs through the transition. Its disappointing that the Opinion continue to play politics with this issue despite asserting that theyre defenders of the steel industry.
HENSCHKE: We have plenty of calls coming in at the moment, if youd like to give us a call, 1300 222 891, or send us a text on 0467 922 891. Were talking to Senator Penny Wong, federal Finance Minister and former Minister for Climate Change, about the fact that the carbon tax bill has gone through the Lower House. Will there be any chance therell be a problem in the Upper House? Or are we just saying this is basically law now?
WONG: I think well do better than we did last time. You might recall we had the carbon price in the previous Parliament go through the Lower House. We had the numbers in the Senate, because Malcolm Turnbull and I had an agreement where we hammered out something we both thought was in the national interest. And of course he was deposed as leader during the course of the debate on the legislation. Quite a dramatic turn of events. And thats when Tony Abbott became Leader of the Opposition on the basis of an opposition to a carbon price. Its really defined his leadership.
The Government has got a very clear set of arrangements with the Independents, the cross-benchers, the Greens. We would anticipate that those arrangements would hold. I think people in this Parliament now understand across the board that is, other than Mr Abbott and his team why this is an important reform. And its been good that people have been able to set aside their differences and come together around an important reform.
HENSCHKE: Well lets hear what you think now, Mike has called in from Dulwich. Good morning Mike.
CALLER: Yeah, good morning. (Inaudible) in power. Youll do whatever it takes. Theres nothing about the environment that really is being driven, or that Labor is driving here. Whats driving it is your desire to stay in Government. Im not a great fan of Tony Abbotts particular response to this, either, but for you to sort of turn around and have a go at Tony Abbott is sheer hypocrisy.
WONG: Mike, youre entitled to your view, Im afraid I dont agree with you. I spent many hours of my life in the last term of the Parliament trying to get a carbon price up. The Labor Party campaigned at 2007 very strongly on a carbon price; we put it through the Parliament. We got an agreement after doing an enormous amount of consultation with the Business Council, with the Australian Industry Group, as well as the environmental movement, to get support around the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme. And we got the support of Malcolm Turnbull and his shadow cabinet.
It is true that our position was not for a carbon tax, it was for an emissions trading scheme. And thats because we do think that a market mechanism is the best way to reduce pollution. We have had to compromise to have a fixed price for a period which works like a carbon tax. That will move to a floating price, an emissions trading scheme, which has always been the Labor Party policy
HENSCHKE: Alright, well lets go
WONG: But if you want to talk about motivation, we are motivated because we believe this is the right thing to do, to change our economy so we pollute less. We dont believe
HENSCHKE: OK, well lots of calls Penny Wong, so lets try and get through them, because I know youve got other appointments this morning. Sam called in from Meningie, good morning Sam.
CALLER: Yeah, hi. I just tire of hearing Labor politicians always justifying the position of the Liberal Party that they went to the 2007 election with a carbon policy. As I remember, the Howard Government actually lost that election, so as a consequence, the Australian people quite clearly said they didnt want a carbon tax then. And then in the last election, the Gillard Government quite clearly said they werent going to implement it. But surely the Australian people have spoken quite clearly, and now weve got a few individuals whove decided to leave democracy to one side and rule in a way which they feel is proper, rather than using due democracy.
WONG: I suppose on that argument then Tony Abbott should have supported the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme through the Senate because he had been elected at that time on a policy to support a price on carbon. The Labor Party had been elected on a policy to support a price on carbon and he voted against it.
People have got to make their own judgments about whats best and the motivation of the Government is that we do believe its time we moved to a clean energy economy. There is a multi trillion dollar industry across the world in low carbon goods and services. We want Australia to be a part of that. We also want to say to our children yes, we were part of ensuring Australia polluted less, that we contributed less to the problem of climate change. I think that is an important imperative.
HENSCHKE: Penny Wong, we had one of the people here from the Festival of Ideas on the program earlier this week from America Ted Norhaus - and he said, hes an environmentalist and yet he still believes a carbon tax will not do a great deal overall for improving the environment. He said if we were really serious weve got to take some much bigger steps than this. Were not pinning too much on a tax like this are we just saying it will save the environment?
WONG: Theres two things that a price on carbon does. The first thing is we know it will reduce our emissions, that Australias emissions will be about 159 million tonnes higher by 2020 than if we didnt put in place a carbon price. So well reduce emissions from what they would otherwise be.
But I think the other important thing is, it is a very clear signal to investors. Weve got to think about this over the long term. We wanted people to invest their money, not in older industries. Not in more polluting industries. We want them to invest in the new economy, to create clean energy jobs.
HENSCHKE: Weve got some more calls coming through. Sam from Meningie. Good morning Sam? Weve got Alan with a question on carbon dioxide. Lets go to Alan first.
CALLER: Good morning, Alan from Marleston. Good morning Ian, Penny. If we call it a carbon dioxide tax and use some of that tax or all of that tax to sequestrate the carbon dioxide, convert it to calcium carbonate, quicklime calcium oxide. Then bury the calcium carbonate which is limestone or chalk and use that tax to sequestrate the carbon dioxide way down in the earth and get rid of the CO2 in that way. Can you comment on that Penny?
WONG: When I was Climate Change Minister, there was a range of sequestration methods that were put to me and Im pretty sure that was one of them. I think one of the things that putting a price on carbon will do is that it actually gives an incentive to look for solutions like that.
The problem weve got at the moment is the only incentive is an incentive to pollute as much as you want because its free. And you pass on the cost to the next generation of Australians because essentially they will pay the most environmental cost for this, and economic cost. And the solution you talk about is amongst a range of technological solutions, and I hope what well see is the innovation of private companies in Australia being turned to how we pollute less and how we sequester carbon and how we look at all the different ways in which we can put less pollution into the atmosphere.
HENSCHKE: Lets go to Harry now from (inaudible). Good morning Harry.
CALLER: Morning. One of the things as a taxpayer I would like to know is just how much money every year under this scheme, and what its going to evolve into. How much money are we going to export every year to foreign so called trading systems which have been shown to be fraudulent, which are a bloody lottery, very hard to verify and therefore will just a be a perpetual drain on the taxpayer for no gain whether or not carbon dioxide causes a problem or not.
HENSCHKE: What trading systems are you talking about Harry?
CALLER: Well these so-called emissions trading schemes which have shown to be fraudulent all around the world.
WONG: The first point is that the Government is giving back the revenue, in fact more than the revenue it is receiving over the next four years of the scheme back to taxpayers through assistance. Were going to increase pensions, were going to increase peoples family tax benefits, were going to increase the tax-free threshold which has the effect of reducing the tax that you pay. So thats the first thing that we are doing.
In terms of international trading, there is provision in the system for properly accredited permits to be traded. So wed make sure that the regulator would ensure that anything that was bought offshore by an Australian company met proper standards.
But can I say this, when people are saying we dont want Australian companies to trade what they are actually saying is we want to pay a higher cost for the transition. We want to prevent Australian companies from accessing lower cost abatement that is reductions in emissions overseas at a lower cost. Now why would you impose a bigger on the economy?
HENSCHKE: Penny Wong, I know youve got to go, weve got to move on as well. Thank you very much for finding time for us again this morning.
WONG: Good to speak with you again Ian.
HENSCHKE: Thanks Senator Penny Wong, Federal Finance Minister.
ENDS