SUBJECTS: Strategic importance of Cairns; strategic competition in the Indo-Pacific; AUKUS; Senate Estimates; need for a National Anti-Corruption Commission; COP26; Morrison-Joyce Government division on climate policy; previous visits to Cairns.

KIER SHOREY, HOST: So, this morning, Senator Penny Wong who, of course, is the Leader of the Australian Labor Party in the Senate, also the Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs is in Cairns. And not only in Cairns, actually in the studio with me right now. Senator, welcome aboard.

SENATOR PENNY WONG, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: It's great to be here. And look thank you for letting me be here while Kristy read the headlines in the studio. She's got a fantastic voice hasn't she!

SHOREY: She's worked on it for many years, you know they actually do voice training in the industry?

WONG: I gathered that. I should try some of that at some point, right?

SHOREY: Alright. So, Senator, you have said in the media, you're here to talk about the strategic importance of Cairns within the Pacific region. So, can I just ask you that question? What is our strategic importance?

WONG: Well, your geographic location, your history in terms of engagement with the region. I mean, we're coming through a pandemic which has reshaped the globe, hasn't it? And that's had some challenges in terms of trade and export opportunities, and we need to really think through how do we maximize the opportunities for Australians as the world opens up? Cairns geographically and historically has been located in, obviously, here we are in the Far North, you're close to the region that's growing, and you've also got long standing relationships with much of the region, so we want to build on that.

SHOREY: And how do we do, Senator?

WONG: That's a good question, I think one of the things I'm doing today is a meeting with Austal, who are obviously a shipbuilder here. You've got a long history in terms of sustainment of some of the defence assets. We need to work out, as Anthony has announced, how do we better leverage our very large investment in defence to ensure local job opportunities. But I think it's also making sure we engage more closely if we can with Indonesia, that's a very important economy for us, a very important country for us, and your proximity is a good thing.

SHOREY: Can I ask about the changing geopolitical landscape out there…

WONG: It's the question of our time, isn't it?

SHOREY: Taiwan's Foreign Minister literally used the term "we're preparing to deal with the war situation" with China. So how do we negotiate our relationship with China, when there's language like that, now, on the table?

WONG: These are difficult circumstances for Australia - I think the most difficult since the end of World War II - because we've been living in a world where the US has been pretty much an unrivalled superpower. And now the US is still the world's largest economy and the world's largest superpower but obviously we know its relative economic position is changing and a lot of the focal point of that competition is our region. So, there are going to be challenges in terms of our relationship with China, no matter who's in government, because on some things we don't share interests, on some things we have a different view.

SHOREY: Barack Obama talked about pivoting to Asia, years ago. Do you think that's actually going to happen? Many people felt that it kind of didn't happen at that point in time?

WONG: I think from what the Biden Administration says, they understand that the region in which we live is the focal point of the strategic competition that we're discussing. But I would just make this point, nothing is made easier by talking a lot, particularly in foreign policy. And my criticism of the Federal Government and of Scott Morrison is there's a lot of talking and not enough doing. And there's a bit of a tendency for some of their people to really amp up the hard rhetoric. Now, we've got a lot of challenges in our relationship with China as China has become more aggressive, more assertive. It's not necessarily, it isn't helped by George Christensen putting on his Facebook "war is coming". It isn't helped by people talking about the drums of war. You asked me a question about Taiwan, I think President Tsai Ing-wen of Taiwan had the right line. She said what we want is the status quo maintained. That's what Australia and the region want. And that's what we should be continuing to advocate, to all concerned, including mainland China.

SHOREY: And how do you feel about the new agreement between the US, the UK, Australia, in terms of going forward? Is that something that works? Or is that something that potentially isolates us, you mentioned Indonesia before, you know, India's on the table as well as another potential ally.

WONG: So, this new partnership that Mr Morrison announced - and there was a lot of fanfare, a lot of flag waving. It is a partnership for more cooperation; more cooperation is a good thing. But what I have said consistently is that it can't be the only thing we do, and it has seen as additional to, not instead of, some of the really important arrangements and structures in our region. We have the East Asia Summit, which is a leader level regional organisation, a regional meeting, we have ASEAN which is obviously a very long-standing entity and really the centre of the region. We have to see these different arrangements as being additional to, not instead of, our engagement with the region.

SHOREY: You recently in Senate Estimates, actually had the chance to grill General Angus Campbell and Alan Jones said that you made absolute mincemeat of Australia's defence hierarchy. He said this!

WONG: I didn't know he'd said that!

SHOREY: What does it feel like to be complimented by Alan Jones?

WONG: Oh, you know, you take it where you can! I've been around, as people keep reminding me, a fairly long time. So, I think you should take compliments and criticisms with the same degree of equanimity, don't you reckon?

SHOREY: I'm fine with that. Do you think, as many people have observed, that Senate estimates has become the place where things that should happen within parliament, actually do happen. Do you think that's correct?

WONG: I think that's a really good point, and over the time I've been in politics. I haven't seen a government so trash the conventions that underpin our democracy, as has Scott Morrison. And the idea of parliamentary accountability, so ministers are accountable to the Australian people, to you, and to everyone listening, through the parliament, is really a very important democratic convention, and it's been trashed by him. And because of that, I think other forums have become more important, like Senate estimates. But you shouldn't have to go to Senate estimates to try to get answers as to how it is that Angus Taylor used a forged document - he's a minister of the crown. You shouldn't have to go to Senate Estimates to find out why it is the Christian Porter took a million dollars in anonymous donations. He was a minister. I mean these are things that there should have been transparency about, and it's really why we really do need an anti-corruption commission.

SHOREY: Within the federal sphere?

WONG: Yes, we do. And, you know, I was one that thought previously, in years past, that our existing framework for accountability federally was sufficient. I don't think that anymore. And that's because sometimes institutions are only as good as the people who inhabit them.

SHOREY: We are with Senator Penny Wong right now - Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs, Leader of the Australian Labor Party in the Senate, as well. And yes, that's right, it does get hot when the door is closed, we've mentioned this before.

WONG: I've just taken my jacket off everyone. That's what he's responding to!

SHOREY: So, moving away from foreign affairs - climate change. It's been an issue we've been talking about, obviously for a long time. We were speaking to Warren Entsch, our local member, who's been invited to go to Glasgow, the conference that is happening in November. A lot of conversation about the Prime Minister should be going. Do you think Scott Morrison should be going?

WONG: He should be going but more importantly he should be doing something. Warren, he's an affable guy, he's a bit of a “I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna”. He's a bit of a “gonna”. But the problem is he represents a government, that's been in government for eight long years, they're now asking you and your listeners to give them another term, a fourth term, so they can govern for 12 years. And if you ever want an example, a policy area, where they have demonstrated not only a lack of leadership, but being obstructionist and stubborn, it's climate change. And as long as Barnaby Joyce continues to operate inside the LNP, let me tell you, the only way you will get action on climate, is to change the government.

SHOREY: Final question I want to ask you, I just want to ask about the Far North. I actually had Kristy say can you ask the Senator about her interaction with Far North Queensland. Have you been here before, what's your...

WONG: Well actually, I first came to Cairns, as a 19-year-old, I think, or 20 year old, and I did my diving certificate here.

SHOREY: Really?

WONG: I did, I was an open water diver. It was a NAUI certificate, which I don't think they exist anymore. And I love it, and I’ve brought my family here a few times. I actually rang my kids and they said is that the place with Muddy's Playground and I said, yeah, that's the one! So, we've been here a few times, it's beautiful. And, you know, having been born in Malaysia, it's lovely to come back to the tropics.

SHOREY: Penny Wong, thank you so much for coming in this morning.

WONG: Great to be with you.

Authorised by Paul Erickson, ALP, Canberra.