CASSIDY: The Minister for Finance, Senator Penny Wong who joins us from Canberra. Welcome.
WONG: Good morning, good to be with you.
CASSIDY: On the costings, trying to cost one another's policies is an inexact science, especially when the Opposition, and opposition's never do, release all their policies until very close to an election?
WONG:Well what we do know is that Tony Abbott is simply refusing to come clean with the Australian people. And we think the Australian people are entitled to know just what Tony Abbott would do to the federal budget.So I am releasing today this document, the pre-budget deficit document, which shows that the Coalition would be in deficit by $9 billion in the 12-13 year. We have had to do this because Tony Abbott simply refuses to tell Australians what he would actually do to the federal budget. I mean you played a clip of Joe Hockey saying 'we found the savings.' Well where are they Joe? Tell us what they are; I think Australians are entitled to know what they are.
CASSIDY: His position is consistent with oppositions in the past, that the policies are not released until very close to an election.
WONG: I don't think the Coalition can run around credibly claiming to be a party that is economically responsible when they continue to say we're going to spend this, we're going to fund this, when they're opposing revenue sources that fund it. And this is something, even their shadow finance minister, the man responsible for doing Tony Abbott's numbers in a budgetary sense, knows.
We hear that Andrew Robb has had another stoush in the leadership group of the Coalition around their promise to not roll back the superannuation guarantee charge. The reality is they know that they can't afford it. They can't afford it because they're opposing the tax on wealthy miners, the Minerals Resource Rent Tax which helps fund this and other policies.
CASSIDY: Your $9 billion, even if you're to give it credibility it's only a starting point, because it doesn't take into account any of the savings that the Opposition will undoubtedly come up with.
WONG: Look, we have taken a conservative position; we have been quite generous to the Coalition. And what I would say is this: if Andrew Robb, Joe Hockey, Tony Abbott say it is wrong, tell us where it is wrong, tell Australians where it is wrong. Tell us what they're not funding, tell us which savings they're going to make.
I mean the context is $70 billion worth of savings they have to make, the equivalent of four years of payments for Medicare across the nation. If they're making cuts of that magnitude Australians are entitled today to know that they are.
CASSIDY: Let's look at the Future Fund now, and let's put to one side whether Peter Costello or David Gonski was the right person for the job. Are you embarrassed that this has become such a public spat?
WONG: I think it is in the best interest of the Fund that we appointed David Gonski. And it's in the best interest of the Fund that people get on with the job now of doing what the Fund is supposed to do. We were guided very much by that principle, what's in the best interests of the Fund, when we made the appointment.
CASSIDY: But it wasn't in the best interests of the Fund that it became a public spat, and that's what's happened.
WONG: Well look, can I say this; the Act that Peter Costello himself brought into Parliament to establish the Future Fund has the Government appointing the Chair and guardians. We've done that and we've done that on the basis of who we thought was the best person for the job. And that person was David Gonski. So as far as I'm ...
CASSIDY: It is how you went about it. It just dragged on for so long.
WONG: Well, you know, what I would say is there's a lot of commentary. I suspect there are some people for whom whatever process we had, if the outcome wasn't the one they wanted, it was going to be criticised. But my focus is: let's look ahead. I think the Fund needs to continue to focus on what its core business is. And I think under David Gonski this Board will do very well.
CASSIDY: Why did you ask David Gonski to take sounding from the Board in the first place?
WONG: Look, as I said, we ran a thorough - as I have said, we've run a thorough process. We did want to consult with the board. But again I say the very act that Peter Costello himself brought forward has the Government making the decision about who's the best person for the job and that's what the Government's done.
CASSIDY: Nick Minchin says it is not a job for a partisan ex-politician anyway, do you agree with that?
WONG: That's a very sound contribution to the discussion.
CASSIDY: Well then why, if it's not a job for an ex-politician, why didn't you make that clear to the Board?
WONG: You see, the difficulty I have here is because some things are in the public arena and some aren't, and I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about what did or did not occur, because I think it is in the best interests of the nation and of the Fund for this to be put behind us.
I don't think anybody credible has suggested that David Gonski is not a sensible appointment. I think he's not only a sensible appointment he's an outstanding appointment.
CASSIDY: Yes, but it's not so much about that. If you have the view and Nick Minchin has it, that it's not a job for an ex-politician and yet you're taking sounding from the Board, why wouldn't you not make it clear to Peter Costello, apart from anybody else, but to Peter Costello and the Board that that is the Government's attitude?
WONG: The Government's attitude was we should appoint the best person for the job and that's what we've done.
CASSIDY: Peter Costello says that David Gonski, now he led the recruitment process and he should, as a result, he should have ruled himself out. So what you have there is a board member, a guardian, being critical of the chairman. Doesn't that then make his position untenable?
WONG: Well it's probably a question you should address to Peter Costello. I think it is unfortunate he's chosen to take this tack. But he says he wants to continue to serve and I assume, therefore, it means he can serve under Mr Gonski. Again, what I would say is people need to put aside whatever personal views they have and look to what is the right thing for the Future Fund.
CASSIDY: But already he's criticised the Chairman. If you let that go as a Government and say that's fine, what sort of a signal does that it send to other government authorities?
WONG: Well I think you should be addressing that question to Peter. My expectation of all guardians and of the Chair, is that they look to working in the best interests of the country, to ensuring the Fund continues the path that was set under David Murray, who was a very competent chair. And that's my expectation of all board members.
CASSIDY: Even despite what Peter Costello has said, do you think that can happen, that they can work effectively together?
WONG: Ultimately that is a decision for Peter Costello. I think that, and you saw - I assume you saw the statement put out by the outgoing chair, David Murray. I think that statement indicated the views of the Board. We have to get on with it and we need to focus on getting on with the job.
CASSIDY: Let's talk about the mining tax and the cuts to the company taxes that come with it. If the mining tax goes through, and you get the revenue, but the company tax cuts are blocked, that's going to help your budget bottom line, isn't it?
WONG: We factored in cuts to the company tax rate into our budget, and our budget shows the budget returning to surplus in 12-13.
But I will mention this, we've got a new breed of Liberal in Parliament House now, it is a high taxing, high spending Liberal Party under Tony Abbott. I mean this is the party of Menzies, this is the party of John Howard, saying they will vote under Tony Abbott, they will vote against a tax cut for small business and a tax cut for the broader economy through the company tax system. Can you imagine John Howard lining up with the Australian Greens to try and kill a tax cut? I mean it's a new brand of Liberal under Tony Abbott.
CASSIDY: Where is the vulnerability? Where will you put the pressure on, the Greens or Coalition to try and get this through?
WONG: Well I've said before, I expected that the Greens are going to have a different position to the Government. They don't pretend to be the party of business. They have got a position. What is extraordinary is the Coalition saying 'we're going to vote with the Australian Greens. We want to vote with the Australian Greens to kill a tax cut'. The party of small business, turning its back on small business.
This is an untenable position, and it's a position that they've got to because they realise their budget numbers don't add up. That's the real story here. The reason they can't afford to support a company tax cut is that they have made too many promises, in terms of spending and repealing things, and now they can't afford to deliver it.
CASSIDY: Why did you split the bill so there will be separate votes on tax cuts for small and big business?
WONG: They're different - are you talking about the minerals tax versus the company tax cuts?
CASSIDY: Yes.
WONG: Well the minerals tax is already in the Parliament, it's actually in the Senate. And what we've done is released the exposure draft legislation for the company tax cuts. And we have said we'll bring that into the Parliament in the Budget week. And Tony Abbott and the Liberal Party will have to make a decision at that point whether or not they support tax cuts for small businesses.
CASSIDY: But you're delaying the tax cuts for big business. Why is that? Why is small business a greater priority?
WONG: That has been in the minerals tax package for some time, Barrie, a head start for small businesses. We don't apologise for that, that's a recognition of the pressures on small business. But our objective has always been to use the minerals tax to fund these sorts of policies, to spread the benefits of the boom. And lowering of the company tax rate is good economic policy. Opposed by Tony Abbott.
CASSIDY: And Malcolm Turnbull again has drawn attention to the original resources super profits tax. And he said when you gave up on that, you gave up on an extra $60 billion to $100 billion over 10 years. Is the figure somewhere in that ballpark?
WONG: We don't release ten-year costings, but I think it's pretty interesting to note that Malcolm's calling was suggesting that we should be going for a higher tax. The reality is he's probably one of the more sensible people on that side and I think he would know that the position that the Coalition have got themselves to, where they're voting against tax cuts, is a wrong-headed one.
CASSIDY: He wasn't suggesting that you should have done that at all. He's just pointing out how much money you let go by striking that deal.
WONG: We went through a process of negotiation. But let's remember, any criticism from the Coalition about this should be a different tax has to be seen in the context of them saying 'actually we don't want this tax. We want to preserve high profits of wealthy miners ahead of the interests of small business and the broader economy.' That, under Tony Abbott, is where the Liberal Party have got themselves to.
CASSIDY: Malcolm Turnbull also makes a point that when that deal was struck the three billionaires that are so often mentioned by Wayne Swan and others were not even in the room when you surrendered that amount of money.
WONG: We've put forward a Minerals Resource Rent Tax that is about ensuring we take a better share of the value of Australia's resources and put it to good use. Put it to uses such as increasing superannuation, including for low income workers; reducing the tax rate for small business and for companies across the country. This is sensible policy.
And what we have from the Coalition, as kneejerk populist policy, a protection, a protection of the vested interest through the protection of profits of wealthy miners. And a bizarre refusal to support tax cuts for small business. It is a very strange position that Tony Abbott has now got himself to, the party of Howard and Menzies, as I said, wanting to vote with the Australian Greens against tax cuts.
CASSIDY: Penny Wong, thanks for your time this morning.
WONG: Good to be with you.
ENDS