EMMA ALBERICI: The Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs is Penny Wong. She joined me a short time ago from Adelaide. Penny Wong, many thanks for being there.
SENATOR PENNY WONG, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IN THE SENATE: Good to be with you.
ALBERICI: How concerned is Labor about escalating tensions between the United States and China?
WONG: I think it's very important for us to focus here on what's in our national interest and our national interest is, and has always been, and will always be in ensuring we have a long-standing, deep commitment and alliance with the United States but deepening our relationship with China.
Our interest is in making sure we work to ensure regional stability, to ensure we deepen and broaden our economic engagement with China and, of course, we have a long-standing alliance with the US. So, you know, we will continue to operate, I think, on a bipartisan basis with those objectives in mind.
ALBERICI: Last month an international court in The Hague rejected as illegal Beijing's sovereignty claims over great swathes of the South China Sea. Now we learn that Russian warships are set to join some 300 Chinese fleet in the area. How will this conflict be resolved, in your view?
WONG: I think the important principle that we need to keep articulating from Australia's national interest perspective is we have a national interest in continuing to support the international rules based order. There are a range of territorial disputes in the South China Sea. We don't take a position in relation to any of those disputes.
What we do continue to do is to urge de-escalation, to urge that people resolve disputes cooperatively and we continue to urge for de-escalation of any tension in the region. Regional stability is important and we should continue to assert those principles, recognising that there are a range of territorial disputes in relation to which we don't express a view.
ALBERICI: Do you accept that our urgings seem to be falling on deaf ears?
WONG: I think anywhere, you know, if you look through history, always there will be events which occur and some of which you can influence, some of which you can influence to some degree and some to a lesser degree. That doesn't change the course you should chart.
But I would make this point. We do always need to make sure in our relationship with China, we recognise there will be points of difference but to also focus on, you know, the very great many aspects of the relationship which are strong and sound. Our economic relationship, for example, and I think it's been a little regrettable in recent days and recent weeks, actually, we've seen a bit of lack of clarity and confusion, I think, from the Government in terms of our broader relationship with China. We have to continue to work at developing that relationship. It's a very strong relationship now but we should always try and develop it even further.
ALBERICI: Is the lack of clarity you're referencing with regard to the Ausgrid part sale?
WONG: I think there has been not just on the Ausgrid sale but on a number of foreign investment proposals a lack of clarity from the Government about its approach.
We agree, as the Opposition, that national security issues are paramount in any set of decisions governments make. But I think there is no doubt there was some confusion, not just for the investors but for the broader investment community, the business community, as well as the relevant State Government about the Government's approach. And I think the Government would do well to perhaps provide a little more clarity in its position.
ALBERICI: On the same-sex marriage plebiscite, will you vote against that bill when it hits the Parliament?
WONG: Can I say first on the plebiscite, Malcolm Turnbull is asking all of us to trust him that he will have the courage to campaign strongly for marriage equality in a plebiscite when he as leader, and as Prime Minister, didn't have the courage to ensure a free vote in his own party room. So he wouldn't stand up in his own party room for a free vote, he now wants us to say oh look, yes, we trust you Malcolm, on the plebiscite. We know you're going to go out and campaign.
Does anyone really think this bloke - this bloke's got form when it comes on taking Barnaby Joyce or Scott Morrison on this issue. He doesn't, he wasn't even prepared to stand up to Eric Abetz and Cory Bernardi in the party room. So I've got to say on the plebiscite, I don't have faith in Malcolm Turnbull on this issue. I think everybody knows he has only agreed to this because he's had to. It's another act of weakness and it's a very expensive act of weakness.
ALBERICI: Can I draw you back to my question...
WONG: And our position is, and we would say to the Liberal Party, have a parliamentary vote on marriage equality. We don't need a plebiscite. We need you to have a free vote and do what's right.
ALBERICI: Do you agree with the former High Court Justice Michael Kirby who said this week that it would be better to have nothing than to proceed with a plebiscite at this point if that's the best on offer?
WONG: I think it would be better to have a parliamentary vote and that is capable of occurring. The only thing that is stopping that is some people on the right in the Liberal Party and regrettably, too many moderates in the Liberal Party, tapping the mat.
ALBERICI: And so in what circumstance would a free vote in the Parliament now be possible given the Government is steadfastly sticking to its plan for a plebiscite?
WONG: And this is the sort of illogic at the heart of Malcolm Turnbull's position, isn't it? I'm not strong enough to give a free vote in the Parliament but he's saying to the LGBTIQ community and our families and our allies and all the people in Australia want marriage equality it's alright, trust me, I'm going to be strong enough to argue it in the community.
Well, you know, we saw what happened on the Republic when Malcolm Turnbull was in charge of a campaign. I think he should find some courage in his party room.
ALBERICI: Your colleague Jim Chalmers earlier today said he hadn't given up on a parliamentary vote.
WONG: I think that's right. I think people need to really redouble their efforts to put pressure first in the Senate but also in the House on those in the Liberal Party we know have a better view.
ALBERICI: Are there likely to be people in the Coalition, do you think, who are prepared to cross the floor on this issue?
WONG: You'd have to ask them, but we know there are people in the Coalition who are pro marriage equality and surely there are good people in the Coalition who understand how divisive a plebiscite could be. We've already seen some of the evidence of the sorts of arguments which will be used about our children, about our families, about the nature of our relationships. And all this because people don't want a free vote in the Parliament.
And let's remember, not only is it expensive, it won't - if we were to have a plebiscite, and if it were successful, that doesn't necessarily guarantee it will proceed in the Parliament. We've had conservatives already say they won't be bound. So what are we going through this for?
ALBERICI: Finally, Penny Wong, is Labor negotiating with the Government over its superannuation changes, specifically the contribution cap which we now understand many Coalition backbenchers are urging be raised or indeed doubled?
WONG: I'm really not sure which proposition we've been negotiating on. I don't know about you, Emma, but I'm a little bit lost as to where the Government's position really is, because each day we seem to get a new position reported in the paper about the cap, about the retrospectivity. From day-to-day we get a different position. Sometimes from Scott Morrison, sometimes from, you know, backbenchers like George Christiansen who seem to be in charge of economic policy under Malcolm Turnbull.
We are prepared to bring bipartisanship to economic and fiscal policy where it's appropriate but the Government really, at the moment, is completely internally divided on this issue and they're all at sea. So there's not really a lot to negotiate with because I don't think there's really anything on the table.
ALBERICI: Senator, thank you for your time.
WONG: Good to be with you.