RAFAEL EPSTEIN, HOST: Post-pandemic, whoever is the biggest, strongest, toughest, meanest country - that's going to make a difference. America has undoubtedly been weakened by its response to the virus. Make your own decision on whether or not you believe all of the numbers coming out of China but they are clearly economically and plague-wise in a better position.

The Federal Opposition under Anthony Albanese have been making noises about this. The Shadow Foreign Minister Penny Wong has been writing a pretty interesting article in the Foreign Affairs magazine and she joins us on the line.

Penny Wong thank you for joining us.

SENATOR PENNY WONG, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Good to be with you, Raf.

EPSTEIN: Now, I'll let everyone know everyone's working from home, I think. The good Senator has a dog in the lounge room that she has to care for. Totally fine. Dogs barking on radio have been one of the good parts.

WONG: I just thought I'd better warn your producer that may happen. I'm hoping it won't. She's currently asleep so let's hope that continues.

EPSTEIN: Let's hope so.

You wrote an interesting phrase about China; that we are more and more uncertain about China's ambitions. We're more and more certain aren't we? They just sort of want to be the biggest, baddest country on the block, don't they?

WONG: China is certainly been much more assertive about its interests and its place in the world, particularly under President Xi Jinping, but also I think in the context of the pandemic.

I think it's useful to step back though, rather than simply only focus on China and understand what's happening to the global system and to the world order.

We're obviously in the biggest global crisis since World War II. We're seeing the greatest economic downturn since the Great Depression. We've got competition that is escalating between the two great powers; the United States and China. And we've got rising nationalism and unfortunately multilateralism is fraying. So it's a much less stable and more divided and regrettably a riskier world for Australia.

We have to grapple with that and I think we have to step up to secure our interest. And that is a general proposition.

As you said, as I said earlier, China is becoming more assertive and pressing its interests more. I think it's important we manage that relationship, recognising that there are differences, being very clear about our interests, our values. And our interests – we’re not stepping away from them - but also recognising that China is a nation with whom we and every nation in the world will continue to engage.

EPSTEIN: I realise you have to be more careful with your words than I do with mine, but they want to, they want to replace America as the global leader don't they?

WONG: Certainly there's a lot of competition between the US and China and both countries overtly and clearly identify the other as competitor.

I'd make a couple of points about that, from Australia's perspective, rather than as a commentator. I guess the first point is that we need to think about our place in the world and our foreign policy in terms of the region and the world and not only in terms of US-China competition. I think there is a risk if we think about it only in those terms…

EPSTEIN: Can I interrupt there, Senator, because you've said that a few times. So how else do you think about it? Because, I mean, I think a lot of people support your call that we need to make the UN work a bit better, we need to be more self-reliant but they're sort of intentions and aspirations, aren't they? We always have to deal with the world as it is. What's the alternative to not just viewing it as a competition between America and China?

WONG: Well we deal with the world as it is, and we try and shape it to Australia's objectives. Of course we deal with the world as it is. But we have to be, I think, more self-reliant, more ambitious and we have to step forward and work harder to secure our interests.

What's the alternative? I think we shouldn't just say, you know, that the world should be defined by US-China competition. I mean, obviously we're an American ally and in that sense we have already chosen where we are in terms of that.

But ultimately what we want is a region with particular attributes and a world with particular attributes.

We want a region that is stable and prosperous, where sovereignty is respected.

We want a world that is capable of cooperation and dealing collectively, with collective challenges.

Now, that's pretty hard. But what I think we have to do is work with not only our principal ally, which is the United States, not only with our allies but also with aligned nations to press for that region and world, to shape that region and world as best we can.

We are not the only country confronting this. And we should work with those that do. Because there are great many countries who share a great number of our interests around the sort of region we want and how we want to deal with the world.

The second point I wanted to make, if I may, in terms of US-China competition; we should be advocating for what I've described and others have described as a settling point.

We should be advocating for ultimately, coexistence that is stable as between the US and China. Now, we have a view about what that coexistence should be, should include. That should include US engagement in our region. It should in include the rules based order and international law that we support. But ultimately, we don't want competition escalating into something worse.

EPSTEIN: Is there still a benefit to being an ally of America?

WONG: Of course there is. I mean not only historically can we say that in terms of the many benefits Australia has had from the relatively prosperous and peaceful period since World War II, that has been underpinned by the US.

EPSTEIN: That's all historical isn't it?

WONG: But also they are our principal security partner and I don't think there's anybody who wouldn’t suggest that the region - a region with the attributes that Australia seeks requires constructive US engagement.

Now, that does not mean there aren’t times we disagree. Of course we disagree with various US administrations.

We've been very clear we disagreed with President Trump's position on the climate agreement, the Paris Agreement. We disagreed with President Trump's decision to remove the United States from the World Health Organization during a once in a century pandemic. They’re two pretty obvious examples where we disagreed with the administration.

But the nation, the United States, is the world's largest economic and military superpower, our principal ally. Yes, our relationship with them is of great benefit to Australia and will remain so.

EPSTEIN: Penny Wong, is from the great state of South Australia, of course, where she's a Senator. She's the Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister in Anthony Albanese Shadow Cabinet. As a Senator, Penny Wong, I do want to come to just what you're seeing in both the Senate examination of the COVID response and the Royal Commission into Aged Care.

But I just wanted to ask a more solid question on America and China perhaps.
The Prime Minister wants missiles. Missiles that can be fired at ships, from our fighter jets and he's looking at missiles we would actually launch from Australian soil. We don't have them at the moment. Is that a good idea? Should we be talking about it now?

WONG: Military capability and enhanced military capability is important and necessary.

My criticism of the Government though is this; that that's not the only thing you do at a time when the world is more unstable.

There are a range of other things you have to do. You have to use what I think Michael Wesley has described as all the levers of Australian foreign policy.

They include your diplomatic network. They include soft power. They include economic engagement.

We want to be a leader and a partner of choice in the region. That puts us in a stronger position.

To do that, we have to be part of galvanising a public health response to the pandemic and an economic response to the economic consequences of COVID-19.

Southeast Asia needs that kind of response. We see the challenges that, just for example, Indonesia is facing. And we also need to play that role in the Pacific.

So my view is what we need to do is to work as deeply and as closely with our region as we can. And whilst military capability matters, so to do diplomacy, soft power, economic engagement and public health cooperation.

EPSTEIN: I will note that Shadow the puppy has not barked while the Senator has been speaking which is good news.

But far more seriously, Senator, aged care still isn't functioning, according to the counsel assisting...

WONG: It's just so distressing, isn't it?

EPSTEIN: What do you make of the Prime Minister's efforts? I mean he apologised I think very sincerely about the mistakes at St Basil's. They do appear to be throwing a lot of effort and resources and thought at it. Do you think they're not trying?

WONG: I want to make two points.

Can I start by just expressing my sympathy to everyone who's lost someone. It's just such a tragic situation in the aged care sector in Australia, and also extend my best wishes and solidarity to those who are fighting the virus, those relatives who are so worried about parents or grandparents in in aged care facilities.

I think there are a few things we need to be clear about. One is that the Commonwealth does have responsibility for aged care.

I think it is a completely legitimate question to ask how has this been allowed to happen? And to ask, how can older Australians in aged care be safe?

And the comments of the Counsel Assisting the Royal Commission today were devastating.

He said none of the deaths were unforeseeable. He said the sector was not properly prepared and, appallingly, he said it is still not properly prepared now.

He went on to say, and this is very disappointing, that his view was that the Commonwealth had demonstrated a degree of self-congratulations and hubris in the in the critical period between the outbreak at Newmarch House in April, and in mid-June when we saw this next wave.

Now all of those points made by - not by a politician - but by a lawyer before the Royal Commission, I think go to the failure of Mr Morrison to take responsibility for the problem and to take responsibility for a plan to ensure this situation can be resolved.

EPSTEIN: I might pursue that with one of the Prime Minister' ministers, Dan Tehan, after 5pm.

Thank you for your time.

WONG: Great to be with you.

Authorised by Paul Erickson, ALP, Canberra.