MARIUS BENSON: Penny Wong, good morning.
SENATOR PENNY WONG, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IN THE SENATE: Good to be with you Marius.
BENSON: It looked like a close call in Cabinet, just in favour of Kevin Rudd, left to the Prime Minister and he decided against him. What are your views on that?
WONG: What weve seen over the last few days is really what is an unseemly chapter in Australian foreign policy, is a Turnbull Government thats at war with itself and the truth over this nomination. We have had Cabinet ministers obviously leaking about the Cabinet process and weve had inconsistent accounts being leaked to the media. Lets remember, initially what was briefed out, presumably by the Prime Ministers Office and other Cabinet ministers, was that this was a captains call. We then had the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia going out and telling Australians that actually it was an overwhelming position in the Cabinet not to support Mr Rudd. And now, as your headline has reminded us, we have reports that Cabinet was split, in fact a narrow majority supporting Mr Rudd. This is a Government that is leaking on itself, it cant even get its story straight when it comes to the leaking. And all of this has meant were not supporting an Australian for an important international position because of petty internal squabbles inside the Liberal Party.
BENSON: Could the Coalition turn to you and say at least the numbers were better for Kevin Rudd than they were in the Labor Party when he was rolled in 2010?
WONG: You see this is an example, I think, of why this debate has gone off the rails, theres far too much focus on personalities and partisanship. Now we could get out the transcripts of the debates between John Key and Helen Clark, or frankly many of the potential nominees for the Secretary-Generals position and their opponents in domestic politics. I think most of the people who have put their hands up are people who have either held positions as leader or senior positions inside their nations. No one would not have been party to some pretty robust domestic politics.
BENSON: None of them was sacked by their own Government.
WONG: I just think this is an example of how insular this debate can be. That were only talking about personalities and partisan fights.
BENSON: The difficulty there is that the personality of Kevin Rudd is central to this, as it was in 2010 when the Labor Party didnt even have a vote, just overwhelmingly said we want to get rid of the guy because we cant work with him. The personality is central.
WONG: Well Marius, thats what Mr Turnbull wants you to say. Thats precisely what Mr Turnbull wants you to say, because he doesnt want you to ask this question: which is why would an Australian government not back an Australian-
BENSON: -Well, Kim Beazley answered that question and he said the Australian Government should be supporting a woman for the post. What do you think of Kim Beazleys view?
WONG: He said a range of things and Id also point out that its been reported that senior Liberal conservative MPs, former MPs, including Mr Downer and Mr Hockey did back Mr Rudd. The question-
BENSON: -Can I go back to Kim Beazley though, because Kim Beazley does say a range of things, but on this he said one specific thing, that Australia should not be backing Kevin Rudd, it should be backing a woman for the post.
WONG: As I said, I think he made many comments about this. Kim Beazleys not the Prime Minister of Australia, Malcolm Turnbull is the Prime Minister of Australia. And instead of making a decision in the national interest, hes clearly made a decision about the Liberal Party internals. We have had leaking from the Government, inconsistent leaking. We have had an extraordinary position where Mr Turnbull hasnt backed the position of the Deputy Liberal Leader. That is one of the things that is, I think, really patent in this discussion, that Julie Bishop did the right thing, put the national interest first, set aside partisan politics or personality politics, and was rolled by her leader. There is a question as to why he allowed her to prosecute this for so long if his decision was going to be not to support Mr Rudd, which, because what its meant is a very public humiliation of his Foreign Minister and Deputy, who was doing the right thing.
BENSON: But theres this central contradiction in Labors position, saying the Coalition should back Kevin Rudd, when Labor said we couldnt work with him, he couldnt run a government and now youre saying that the Coalition should say hes the man to run the United Nations. Surely thats a contradiction?
WONG: There has always been a view that national interest on these sorts of external appointments, international appointments, comes first, above personality politics or partisan politics. Whether or not its someone being appointed as an Ambassador, whether its someone being appointed to a senior international position. For example the Labor Party in previous times backed Malcolm Fraser for CHOGM, after that Gareth Evans was backed by the Coalition for an international position-
BENSON: -Can I interrupt you there Penny Wong-
WONG: -None of those people would have been immune from personal criticisms inside their own parties and on the basis of partisanship.
BENSON: Just interrupting you because time is short and I just wanted to hit you with one question away from Kevin Rudd. In your new capacity as Shadow Foreign Minister, what do you think of Donald Trump?
WONG: Ive said previously Im not going to engage in a running commentary on the American election. People know my views and the Labor Partys views on a whole range of international economic and foreign policy matters, but ultimately Mr Trump and Ms Clinton, the contest between them will be determined by the American people.
BENSON: Penny Wong, many thanks.
WONG: Good to be with you.