CURTIS: Ive been joined in the studio by the Finance Minister Penny Wong, who was Climate Change Minister the last time the parliament voted on these issues. Shell also have carriage of the vote in the Senate.
Penny Wong, is this a significant milestone for you watching the votes in the House of Representatives go through on the Clean Energy Future packages?
WONG: I think it is an historic day for the country and certainly a great achievement for the Government and particularly the Prime Minister who has managed to get a minority government to get through a reform that we all know is in the national interest. That previously was supported by John Howard as well as Malcolm Turnbull. But unfortunately politics until now has got in the way. This is a very good day for the future.
CURTIS: Last time the bills went through the Senate, their passage was much more troubled because the Opposition Leader changed. Youll be having carriage of these bills through the Senate this time. Are you expecting a much easier passage and when do you expect them to pass?
WONG: Last time you might recall we did have the numbers for a period because we got Mr Turnbulls agreement so we went in into the Senate debate, a very long Senate debate, with a majority in the Senate. But of course during the course of the somewhat, I think some 60 hours of debate in the Senate - Malcolm Turnbull was replaced as leader by Tony Abbott on the basis that he would oppose action by climate change. It was, you might recall, a very volatile time, a tense time. Very disappointing for all of us who want action on climate change because we watched the vote shift during the course of the debate.
CURTIS: In fact the tenor of the debate shifted during the course of the debate as those backing Tony Abbott became sure that they had the numbers?
WONG: Thats right. I remember I think it was Senator McGauran coming in and saying, I know something you dont know. Of course, we all knew what was happening and gloating about it. I mean really it was quite sad to see that kind of small minded politics triumph in relation to what should have been a reform for the future. Its good that the Parliament on this occasion will do better. Will do better by future generations of Australians.
CURTIS: The votes are still being counted in the chamber. Do you know when the vote will happen in the Senate? How much debate will be allowed on the bills in the Senate before they go through? Are you expecting them to be through in the next month?
WONG: Well have that debate I think probably today or tomorrow in terms of the hours as to when the bills will be brought on and debated in the Senate. Well have a proper debate. Well have a full debate. But we will bring the vote to a conclusion because this is an important reform. And for all the talk from the Liberal Party and the National Party about needing more time to debate it. Theyve had years. Theyve had years. We had 60 hours plus debate on the CPRS. That was on the last occasion. Remember it had been in the Parliament a number of times before. So theyve had a lot of time. And the reality is no amount of debate is going to change Tony Abbotts mind. He wants to destroy this reform. I dont think hell be able to deliver once it has been put in place, tearing it down. But theres no doubt hell keep talking about it.
CURTIS: He said this morning his pledge to repeal it is written in blood. That shows some of his determination doesnt it?
WONG: Well its a bit dramatic isnt it really? Written in blood sounds like something out of a Boys Own manual. Ultimately, this is about business certainty, its about transforming the economy. I think Mr Abbott is going to have a great deal of trouble if he were to become the leader of the country, repealing this.
CURTIS: All the talk weve been having this morning has been about the parliamentary debate. And while that has been tricky for the Government to manage in minority government, you have a bigger task dont you? You have not yet convinced the Australian public that carbon pricing will do all the things you say it will do. Is that task simply too great?
WONG: Lets remember where the debate has been because I think it is important not get frozen in time because of the political debates. There was a time in this country, not that long ago, four years ago, where there was bipartisan support and strong community consensus on the need for action on climate change. It is a big reform; it is a reform of our economy. It is saying we are no longer going to run our economy on the basis of you can pollute as much as you like without charge and without limit. Thats a big change.
And its true that I think what we have seen is a scare campaign that has been effective. But I do think it is important for politicians and this Parliament to think beyond the short term and to think about where do we want to be as a nation in ten years time. What do we want to say to our children? Do we want to bequeath to them a cleaner energy economy, an economy that is less polluting? Do we want to do our bit on climate change? I think the answer to those questions is yes.
CURTIS: But is it a more difficult argument to make to the public, more difficult to convince the public when you dont have bipartisan support?
WONG: Absolutely.
CURTIS: Well just hear Harry Jenkins read the votes
(Interview pause) CURTIS: To push the introduction of the carbon tax out until after the next election has been lost. I did say earlier that the amendments had been dealt with, but were still going through the final votes on those this morning. Penny Wong, the Finance Minister, and the Minister who will have carriage of the bills in the Senate, is still with us in Parliament House. Penny Wong, we were talking before about how difficult it will be to convince the public, and I was asking, if you dont have bipartisan support, and it doesnt look like you will have it when the carbon price comes in in July next year, how long is it going to take the public to see the effects of that carbon price, and to know, as you believe they will, that it wont be as bad as Tony Abbott has portrayed it?
WONG: I think to get out of the scare campaign, to get away from all the untruths which have been told, things like the death of the coal industry and those sorts of things which are patently untrue; were going to have to experience it. And I think what people will see is that the day after the price on carbon comes in, the chickens will still get up and the sun will still rise, and the skys not going to fall in.
But more importantly, what we will see, particularly over time, is a change in behaviour in our businesses. Well see more investment into clean energy, more investment into clean energy jobs and better ways and cleaner ways of doing business. Its a long and gradual transformation we will see in our economy, but as we were reminded in recent days, we keep forgetting that if we delay how much the cost will be, and this is the sort of bizarre thing about Tony Abbotts position. He wants to impose a higher cost.
CURTIS: Just listening to Harry Jenkins.
(Interview pause)
CURTIS: This is the vote on the bills as amended. The bills as amended are now being voted on, so this does appear to be the final vote on the package of the carbon price bills, the clean energy future bills. Therell be a separate vote on the steel transformation bill, which had a slightly wider margin when the second reading vote happened yesterday because Bob Katter supported it. Penny Wong, has, though, the Governments aim to get public support been damaged by the fact that the Prime Minister said before the election there wouldnt be a carbon price under the Government she led, and that has undermined the trust that you need with the people.
WONG: I think the challenge for the Government has been to put forward what is a tough reform, a reform that does change how the economy works, in the face of such a vitriolic scare campaign. And that has been difficult. And weve seen a continued failure to be responsible from the other side, and I think in that somewhat febrile environment, its been difficult for the Government to explain clearly to people what is occurring. Its always easy to frighten people. Its always easier to tell people why something shouldnt happen, its always easier to oppose. And unfortunately, when you have Tony Abbott as Opposition Leader, thats what you get.
But we need to press ahead with this reform, and I think Australians will see next year, when the carbon price comes in, when they start to receive higher pensions, start to receive the benefits through the family tax system, start to see the benefits through the increasing of the tax-free threshold, theyll start to see the benefits of this reform.
CURTIS: Tony Abbott and his Opposition spokesperson on climate change Greg Hunt seem convinced that they would be able to repeal this bill in Government. Have you made it repeal-proof?
WONG: I think the bigger issue is, if they were to gain Government, is that they would be saying to the Australian people, we want you to have lower pensions. We want you to have higher taxes, because we have to put the tax-free threshold back down again. And we want you to have less family tax benefit.
They would also be saying to business, we want to remove the very certainty that youve been calling for. It would be an extraordinary act of economic irresponsibility from a man who used to support this.
Lets remember, on this day today, Tony Abbott and Greg Hunt are both on the record as supporting both an emissions trading scheme, and certainly Tony Abbott as supporting a carbon tax. So the man who says hes a conviction politician, who has written in blood, apparently, his desire to repeal it, once campaigned for it, under a different leader and different time. It says something about his bona fides.
CURTIS: Penny Wong, with that, I know you have to go. Thank you very much for your time.
WONG: Good to be with you.
ENDS