FRAN KELLY: Here at home the Shadow Foreign Minister Penny Wong says the Prime Minister is damaging one of our most important relationships by trashing decades of bipartisan policy on the Middle East. Senator Wong is in our Parliament House studios. Penny Wong welcome back to Breakfast.
SENATOR PENNY WONG, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IN THE SENATE: Good morning Fran.
KELLY: Joko Widodo raised the embassy issue in his talks with the Prime Minister, we know that. But Scott Morrison was adamant that the matter was not related to the delay in signing the trade agreement, that the issues were not linked in their talks. Do you believe him?
WONG: I dont think anybody believes him, including his own side. The reality is the Indonesian Trade Minister has made very clear that the delay in finalising this agreement, or signing it, is because of the Governments position on Palestine.
The reality is we have got a Prime Minister who has demonstrated his poor judgement. He has been willing to trash long-standing bipartisan policy in a desperate attempt to get votes. He did so against advice, without the Cabinet approving it, without the minister knowing until the day before, and of course the Defence Force who only knew after the media.
Now, the cost of all this chaos to Australias national interest is now being demonstrated. He needs to accept he made the wrong judgement and finalise the Governments position and return to the bipartisan position which Mr Turnbull, Julie Bishop and many others in the Liberal Party have had for decades.
KELLY: Australia remains committed to the two state solution. The Prime Minister said that is the message he articulated very clearly to his Indonesian counterpart, and the question is always raised in this debate why should a country, another country, Indonesia in this case, dictate or influence our foreign policy? Right or wrong these are our decisions to make, not Indonesias.
WONG: No country should dictate Australias foreign policy. Australias foreign policy should be determined by looking carefully and responsibly at the national interest and that has not occurred here. What has occurred here was a rash, precipitous decision by Mr Morrison because he thought this might gain him votes in Wentworth. The cost of this is now being demonstrated.
When you have the former Trade Minister, Mr Ciobo, being reported in the press as telling his former trade counterpart, Indonesian counterpart, that the chance of actually moving the embassy is only five per cent, I think this demonstrates the sort of chaos that this government is in and it really confirms the Prime Ministers poor judgement.
KELLY: Could it also confirm that the political judgement that both countries are making? Yes, votes in Wentworth might have been on the Prime Ministers mind, given the timing it looked like that. But in Indonesia the Presidential elections are in April and the Islamist parties might make it difficult for Joko Widodo to be seen to be too supportive of Australia or the trade deal?
WONG: I dont think anyone with an understanding of the position in Indonesia would have been under any illusion, whether it was Indonesia or many other countries in the region, that the decision Mr Morrison announced, the rashly announced, ill-considered, rushed decision that he announced, was going to have implications for our standing in the region.
Apart from anything, Fran, it goes to consistency, and it goes to credibility. And, unfortunately, Scott Morrison has undermined both of those. And I think the only way out of it is, rather than holding on to this judgement until Christmas, which is what he told reporters he would do yesterday - under pressure, when asked, "When will you make a decision on the embassy in Israel?" He was pressed and he said, "Christmas.
Well, why wait till Christmas?
KELLY: Were unclear of the process of how this decision has been made. Have you been briefed on that?
WONG: I dont think the Cabinet has been briefed. Have you?
KELLY: I certainly dont know. All we have is this date. Youve described this as a debacle. Youve said the forces that tore down Malcom Turnbull are now weaponising the embassy decision to continue their hard right divisive agenda to undermine another Prime Minister.
WONG: Thats right. When we are talking about Mr Morrisons judgement, apart from the judgement problem that I have described in terms of our international standing and our national interest, looking at the internals of the Liberal Party. Youve got the hard right, the same people who tore down Malcolm Turnbull now coming out and demanding that the embassy be moved. You had Senator Eric Abetz, who was obviously instrumental in the leadership spill against Malcolm Turnbull, coming out and, frankly, suggesting Australia should threaten its aid with Indonesia if Indonesia is going to continue to express an opinion about this foreign policy decision the Prime Minister has made.
So, not only has Scott Morrison got himself into a position where he has compromised our position with a very important and critical neighbour, he has also got himself into a position where he has ignited a divisive issue inside the Liberal Party. You have to question the blokes judgement.
KELLY: The Prime Minister has also met with his Chinese counterpart, Premier Li Keqiang in Singapore last night. The backdrop is the battle for dominance underway in the Pacific. Last week Scott Morrison announced a $3 billion pivot towards that region and there will be more infrastructure announcements at this weekends APEC meeting in Papua New Guinea. Beijing has got in ahead of this by declaring the region is not any countrys sphere of influence and alleging a Cold War mentality. Do you support the Australian Governments moves to shore up our presence in the Pacific and are we captive of a Cold War mentality in your view?
WONG: First, we welcome the Prime Ministers announcement, Mr Morrisons announcement, about an infrastructure fund and it mirrors an announcement that Bill Shorten made earlier for precisely the same type of financing facility. Bill Shorten gave a speech well before Scott Morrison calling for an investment bank because it is very clear that we need to find other ways of helping, supporting development and in particular infrastructure development in the Pacific.
The second thing Id say is this, I dont think it is helpful to use words like Cold War.
KELLY: I didnt use them, Premier Li Keqiang did.
WONG: Well, you used them in the question to me. What I would say to you Fran is this. We should focus on two things. We should focus on what we do, rather than what other nations do. We should focus on our relationships with this region. And the second thing we should be focusing on is the wellbeing and the development of the Pacific. Thats the endpoint here. The endpoint is not one country having more dominance, the endpoint is making sure that this region, which has some of the poorest people in the world, develops, and develops well, and develops to its full potential. Thats what we want. So, I think the way we look at the Pacific from Australias perspective is to focus on what we should do.
Now, we in the Labor Party have been saying for some time, the Pacific, should we be elected, will be core business for us. It will be front and centre in a way it has not previously been for the Coalition Government. I am pleased that is shifting. Weve also said that we would focus on making sure that we are partner of choice, but we know we have to earn that.
KELLY: Penny Wong, on another issue, a year ago today we got the results of the postal survey on same sex marriage. When you heard that result you, famously, we know this because we have got the photos, you broke down in tears. It was obviously a visceral, powerful moment of relief for you. It had been a long, hard slog. It was personal for you and for so many others. Did that day change you? Did it change things for you? Did it make you feel different about your place in this country?
WONG: It was a profound statement about the sort of country we are. I think I said on that day, on that night, it was one of those days where you believe this country can be what you hope it is.
Its this paradox isnt it Fran? Because in some ways nothing has changed. The sky will fall in rhetoric from those who opposed equality for so long obviously hasnt come to pass. Life has gone on as normal. But we made a profound statement as a nation about inclusion and acceptance and that was very important, not just for the LGBTIQ community and our kids, it was actually important for all of us, about what sort of country we are.
The credit for that goes to the Australian people. Australians together made that change, and its something we should be very proud of and it is something to be celebrated.
KELLY: Penny Wong thank you very much for joining us.
WONG: Good to speak with you.
Authorised by Noah Carroll, ALP, Canberra.