KELLY: Penny Wong, good morning, thanks for joining us.
WONG: Good morning, Fran. Good to be with you.
KELLY: Senator Wong, you supported Julia Gillard for a long time now who did you vote for last night?
WONG: Fran, as you know I have been a strong supporter of Julia Gillard. She is a remarkable woman a remarkable woman. A great Labor champion and shes changed the nation. Whether its through transforming schools, transforming our economy, through a carbon price, delivering DisabilityCare to Australians with a disability. And, as our first female Prime Minister, shes also changed the nation. And thats a position which made her the target of unprecedented personal attacks both implicitly and explicitly supported by the Opposition. She is also a friend.
But, ultimately, I had to weigh that personal loyalty against loyalty to the Labor Party and to the people we represent. I had to decide who I thought would offer the best contest at the next election against Tony Abbott a man who I dont believe is worthy to be Prime Minister of this nation. So, last week, Ive been privately weighing up those two loyalties and regrettably came to the view that they were no longer aligned.
So, yesterday I made the personal decision that I could no longer support Prime Minister Gillard. I met with her to advise her of that fact and it was the most difficult decision of my political life. But, ultimately, I believed I had to do what I thought was in the best interests of the Labor Party and, through that, the best interests of the nation.
KELLY: So, why in the end was there one thing ... when you said you were weighing it up ... why, in the end, did you shift your loyalty from Julia Gillard to Kevin Rudd?
WONG: Well, you know, theres never one thing. But I came to the view, as Ive outlined, that ultimately Kevin Rudd would offer the strongest contest against Tony Abbott at the next election. And, as I said, were a Labor Government, a Labor Party. We represent a great many people in this country and I think Australia is a better place for Labor Governments and for this Government. And ultimately that had to be my first priority. I accept that there are other colleagues who made a different decision.
KELLY: How did Julia Gillard respond when you went to see her privately and tell her this?
WONG: That conversation is private. But I will say that she always, including in that conversation, demonstrated enormous dignity and enormous class, as I think has been on display particularly in her resignation speech last night. I also would like to say something about Wayne Swan. Ive served with Wayne as Finance Minister and him as Treasurer hes been a great Treasurer. Hes steered this countrys economy through some stormy waters and hes made an outstanding contribution to Labor.
KELLY: You said you deliberated on this decision for a while. Were you lobbied? Did you speak to Kevin Rudd? Did he or his supporters come and lobby you?
WONG: At no stage did I speak to Kevin Rudd. And, at no stage prior to my discussion with the Prime Minister did I indicate which way I would vote or anything other than support for the Prime Minister to anybody.
KELLY: So, Leader of the Government in the Senate is not a reward?
WONG: Absolutely not. And in fact, as you know, I stood with the unanimous support of the Caucus, including Julia Gillard.
KELLY: Kevin Rudd has been rewarded; I mean, some would see him as stalking the Labor leadership for the past three years. And many within your Party blame Kevin Rudd for the damaging leaks that derailed the campaign in 2010 that saw Labor ending up with a minority Government thats how some people see it. Why is he now being rewarded?
WONG: Well, ultimately, theres always commentary about the past and this hasnt been in terms of the internals of the Labor Party our finest period. Having said that, despite that weve delivered some extraordinarily important reforms which are making a difference to many people in this country and are making a difference to Australians. But ultimately people have to make a decision about what was in the best interests of the Party and now is the time for us to unite. We have a job to do and I think uniting has been made much more possible and will occur because of the dignity and grace and loyalty to the Labor Party that Julia Gillard and Wayne Swan have shown.
KELLY: Kevin Rudd says he has learned a lot; he has learned humility. Have you seen signs of change in Kevin Rudd?
WONG: Well, I havent spoken to Kevin prior to the ballot ...so I think his character is something that he can talk about.
KELLY: Did his shift on same sex marriage have any influence on your decision?
WONG: No, it did not.
KELLY: What can Kevin Rudd do for Labor that Julia Gillard couldnt?
WONG: Well, I think the issue here is what can the Party do? And what the Party has to do is unite behind the new Leader and provide the strongest contest and strongest set of alternatives to Tony Abbott at the next election. I do not believe Tony Abbott is the sort of man who should lead this country. I think he has views that are not consistent with modern Australia. I do not believe he has any understanding of principles of fairness which are so dear to Australians. And that is our job. To go out there and argue for those policies and those principles those Labor principles.
KELLY: Julia Gillard was Australias first female Prime Minister. How hard was it for you to vote against Australias first female Prime Minister? Here you are, a senior woman in a Labor Cabinet.
WONG: And a feminist. And thats been extremely hard. But, ultimately, as I said, you have to weigh your loyalties and your different principles. And I do not believe the feminist principles which I hold dear would be served by Tony Abbott becoming Prime Minister with the views that he has expressed on women and womens capacity and because of the ways in which he has implicitly allowed the sexism in this country that we have seen on display. I do not believe a leopard changes his spots.
KELLY: In terms of the sexism which has been on display, as you say, the Prime Minister made some reference to that last night too the former Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, in her speech after the vote. She said: The reaction to being the first woman Prime Minister does not explain everything about my Prime Ministership, nor does it explain nothing. It explains some things and its for the nation to think about those things in a sophisticated way. Do you think the reaction to having a female Prime Minister ... how much of it does explain about Julia Gillards position in the polls with the electorate?
WONG: I think Julia put it very well it explains some things, but not everything. And I think her suggestion that we collectively consider as a nation the response and, in particular, the way in which things were said, the sorts of views and personal attacks that became legitimised, we should think about whether that is what we want for our national politics. As Prime Minister Rudd said last night, that is not what we want for our national politics. We should have a very different approach to our political life and I hope that we do consider that.
KELLY: Julia Gillard also said last night that she thinks her doing this job will make it easier for the next woman. You could argue it could make it harder, given the reaction?
WONG: Well, it depends what we do with it. I think shes right. The important thing about being the first is that theres another, and then another.
KELLY: Just back to what happens now: Kevin Rudd needs to replace a lot of people in his front bench. There will be a reshuffle. Do you expect to be Finance Minister?
WONG: Ill serve in whatever capacity Kevin wishes me to. Id anticipate that would be in this portfolio, but if he wants me to do another job, Ive always served every Labor Leader - Ive served under in the capacity theyve asked me to.
KELLY: Have you had discussions on that yet?
WONG: Not on this issue.
KELLY: Penny Wong, how does Labor heal from here?
WONG: Well, I think we should, I suppose, take note of and look to the principle that was set last night by Prime Minister Gillard. Because I think what she said and how she approached with enormous dignity an extraordinarily difficult evening really is a call to unity across our Party which all of us should heed and I believe we can.
KELLY: You obviously feel bad about this decision, in some part of you. I mean, youre troubled by it ...
WONG: I feel emotional ... because you dont easily change your support and you dont easily change your support for someone you regard as a friend and that has been a difficult decision.
KELLY: How hard will it be for Labor to get back on the front foot now and start getting back on with governing under a new Leader?
WONG: Well, I think we can do it. And I have great faith in my colleagues. We have all come here to this Parliament because we believe in the Labor Party and what Labor Governments do for Australia that we make Australia a better place. And thats what drives us. And that is what will drive us in the days ahead.
KELLY: Penny Wong, thank you very much for joining us on Breakfast.
WONG: Good to speak with you.
ENDS