FRAN KELLY, HOST: The US President took time out is today from dealing with the chaos on his streets to speak with Prime Minister Scott Morrison about an expanded Group of Seven leading economies, which would controversially also include Russia.
Key allies, including Britain and Canada, say Russia should remain on the outer due to its annexation of Crimea and the downing of MH 17 back in 2014. This is the latest complication in a very unsettled international outlook.
Penny Wong is the Shadow Foreign Minister. Penny Wong, welcome back to Breakfast.
SENATOR PENNY WONG, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Good morning Fran. Good to be with you.
KELLY: We'll get to the G7 in a moment, there's a fair bit to talk about obviously. But I just wonder, as you view the scenes in the US, at the moment, what you see this doing in terms of America's standing in the world and Australia's capacity to rely on America as a trusted partnership, which we have done for the past 70 years. How weakened is America, at this point?
WONG: Well, these are dreadful scenes. The escalation of police brutality against protesters, and the media, following the murder of George Floyd, certainly isn't the example the world does expect from the United States.
So the point I'd make is Australia is one of the United States' allies. We look at this with great sadness, but we also look at what is happening with this in our mind: the recognition that stable democracies do depend on people, leaders seeking to unite their people, rather than dividing.
And we hope that America can come through this and deal with this dreadful period that it's going through.
KELLY: The White House has released some details of that call from the US President to Scott Morrison yesterday putting this invitation to the G7, which was obviously discussed. Hong Kong was on the list of issues discussed. The pandemic was on the issues discussed. It didn't mention the US riots. I can't imagine that our Prime Minister wouldn't have said something. But is it not the place of Australia's Prime Minister to urge unity and peace to President Trump at a time when he has stood that very day and said that he will bring the military to the streets?
WONG: Well, as I said, I think leaders should unite rather than divide people. I think stable democracies do depend upon that.
The acceptance of the authority of government by people, by its people does depend on people seeing government's behaviour as legitimate, as demonstrating justice and equality.
And obviously, we've seen law enforcement activities, including the death, the murder of Mr Floyd, which means that people are obviously reacting very strongly.
I would hope that both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister would be making representations as a friend, and an ally, about the need for leaders to unite America.
KELLY: On what basis? If you will Foreign Minister of Australia, what message would you be sending?
WONG: That would be my message; that it is the responsibility of leadership to ensure a stable democracy, that people are united.
And when aspects of law, for people in law enforcement or aspects of the state behave in ways which are not consistent with the notion of the state as being fair, acting legitimately, acting with regard to equality before the law, then it is important that leaders demonstrate, by their words and actions, the need for unity.
KELLY: Back in 2016, before he was President, Bill Shorten described Donald Trump as barking mad. How would you describe Donald Trump?
WONG: Well, I don't want to get into commentary about the President of the United States.
I can tell you what my view is about the importance of leaders uniting. But, you know, as Shadow Foreign Minister and as a party of government we deal with the institution of government in the United States.
I'm not going to make the mistake John Howard did prior to Barack Obama's election where he said that terrorists would be barracking for an Obama win. I'm not going to make that kind of partisan commentary.
But at a level of principle, I think we always should say unity matters, that matters to stable democracy, and leaders should unite not divide.
KELLY: Let's go to the invitation for Australia to join an expanded G7 and certainly to be present at this year's G7 meeting at Camp David. Donald Trump issued that invitation. The Australian Prime Minister, I think, would think that's a great thing for Australia to be offered a seat at that table. But Donald Trump also wants Russia to be part of the group again. 38 Australians died when MH17 was downed over Ukraine. What do you think, should Scott Morrison, attend the G7 in September? But should Australia accept or look at the possibility of being invited to sit alongside, as part of this group, alongside Vladimir Putin?
WONG: Well I hope that Mr Morrison has been making clear to President Trump Australia's strong views about Russia, about Russia's failure to bring the perpetrators of the downing of MH17 to justice, about the importance of justice for the Australians, and others who were killed in that act. And that should be a point that Prime Minister is making to President Trump.
I would say it's not clear where this will end, Fran. I mean, I think the UK and Canada are reported as opposing Russia's inclusion and that is entirely understandable given, not only MH17 but obviously Russia's exclusion from the G8 in 2014 as a result of the invasion of Crimea. So, I'm not sure, not clear, where this will end up.
My view is this: obviously the Prime Minister wants to accept this and certainly it's reasonable for us to accept an invitation of this sort. But he shouldn't behave as if this group meeting is an echo chamber. And he should take every opportunity in any such meeting to protect and promote Australia's interests, both in relation to justice for MH17 victims but also, for example, pressing Donald Trump, about the US-China trade deal and what affect that may be having on Australia's exporters.
KELLY: You're listening to RN Breakfast. Our guest is the Shadow Foreign Minister, Penny Wong. Tomorrow the Prime Minister will hold a virtual summit with the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi. Defence and trade will be on the agenda. Now the Former DFAT secretary Peter Varghese drew up a blueprint for an India economic strategy a couple of years ago, and found the problem is not with government, it's with business - "...the big end of town, still doesn't buy the India story." Is it time, that business woke up to the investment opportunities in India?
WONG: I think Government has a role in that.
I mean, the reality is Mr Varghese did the India economic strategy, which was as a consequence of, you know, the trade discussions not progressing as fast as had been hoped.
It's two years, I think next month, since the strategy was presented to Government and frankly it's been gathering dust.
And we've seen continued failure by this Government to economically, expand our economic engagement with India but more broadly to diversify our trading economy.
I mean, an interesting point Fran: we are, under Scott Morrison as Prime Minister and Treasurer, we have become increasingly reliant on a single trading partner - that is China.
And the only economy that depends more on China than Australia is Hong Kong.
Our proportion of Australian trade with China has increased by a third. And if the Government is serious about diversification, you know, obviously we need to look to other markets. India is one of them.
KELLY: On another issue, and just finally, you were part of the Labor Government, the Labor Cabinet, that banned the live cattle trade with Indonesia back in 2011. The Federal Court yesterday found that action was "capricious and unreasonable."
Do you recall that cabinet meeting and if you had your time over again, would and should you have been more mindful of the harm the ban was inflicting on the cattle industry?
WONG: Well, I don't think I'm going to be talking about cabinet meetings, as you know, Fran.
I hope people, as you will recall, the circumstances that led to this was some, I think quite appalling footage of the practices in a range of abattoirs, that was aired from memory on Four Corners. And you might recall, there was a very strong view in the community about that. And I think there was a question about the social licence of that trade, which was a very important issue at the time.
Obviously, the court has made a decision. You know the court has said the Government has got it wrong and we respect that judgement.
KELLY: Was it a mistake at the time? Did you realise that at the time?
WONG: Look, I'm not going to, I'm not going to get into commentary about it. I don't know what the Government's proposing to do with this decision.
I would say that the court has spoken. It's made very clear that the decision of the Government, nearly a decade ago, that that was not done correctly, and we, and I respect the courts judgement.
KELLY: And you suggest the Government should accept this decision, not appeal it?
WONG: That's a matter for the Government. The Government has to look at the interests of the Commonwealth. That's a matter for the government of the day.
KELLY: Penny Wong, thank you very much for joining us.
WONG: Good to speak with you.
Authorised by Paul Erickson, ALP, Canberra.