HAMISH MACDONALD: You were not in the chamber during Senator Hansons speech. Why?
SENATOR PENNY WONG, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IN THE SENATE: I chose not to attend. Everybody makes their own choices about how to deal with Senator Hanson and her views and I chose to not attend and I am very clearly of the view we, as Australians, should reject the views she puts forward.
MACDONALD: But are you also ignoring the views by ignoring her?
WONG: No. I am happy to have a conversation about why I think her views are wrong. I think she peddles prejudice and fear and what I would say to Australians is that there is no community which has been made stronger by prejudice and fear. There is no community which has made itself stronger, nor more safe, by targeting a particular group of people because of their religion or their ethnicity. Her answers do not make Australia stronger, they do not make Australia safer and they do not make us a more cohesive society.
MACDONALD: John Howard says Australian politicians must learn the lesson from last time and not dismiss Pauline Hanson or those who vote for her. Do you agree with that?
WONG: I think the mistake that Mr Howard made, which regrettably some in the Coalition appear to be making again, is that he, as I recall, defended her right to speak. Nobody needs to defend Ms Hansons right to speak. She is in the Senate and she has got a voice. The people that need defending are the people she is attacking. I think politicians do have obligation here and the obligation is not to stand up for someone who has a national platform about whom you are asking me questions, who is reported in all the newspapers. The obligation is to the people in Australia who do not have a voice, who she is attacking.
MACDONALD: Is someone necessarily racist if they hear things in Pauline Hansons speech overnight that they agree with?
WONG: Look, I have never thought that name-calling, when it comes to issues of prejudice, is the sensible way to go and I dont intend to start today. I think you do have to deal with the concerns that people have. You do have to talk to Australians about issues that they are worried about. But I think also it is wrong to say that her ideas have widespread support. They dont. Lets remember if she were making this speech 50 or 60 years ago she would have been talking about being swamped by Greeks and Italians. Maybe 40 years ago it would have been Eastern Europeans, 20 years ago it was Asians and today it is Muslims. With all of those waves of migration we have seen Australia grow stronger, yes more diverse, more diverse but stronger. I think diversity I disagree with Senator Hanson I think diversity is a strength and I think if you look at the history of Australia and the waves of migration you can see that her policy prescriptions, her answers, are no answer.
MACDONALD: She talked in her speech overnight about the silence of Australias Grand Mufti. Does she make a fair point given that he rarely gives interviews, he struggles to engage, when clearly interfaith community relations are one of the central issues of this moment?
WONG: I havent had the opportunity since that speech to go through all of the statements which are being made by Muslim leaders, but I would say this: I have observed Muslim leaders come out at important moments to talk about the importance of tolerance, to express sympathy and solidarity with the wider Australian community at various times where we have seen dreadful attacks whether in Australia or elsewhere. And I think it is wrong to foment fear in the way that she has. Can I just make this point about migration because I think it is important to go beyond Senator Hansons views which are designed to get a headline, it is a very good strategy, and that is why you and I are talking about this so much. But one of the policies she puts forward is that we stop all overseas migration. Only this week we had the Productivity Commission come out with a report which looked the economic benefit of migration and what it said is if we continue our long-term pattern of migration you are looking at 2060 per capita GDP so that is how much Australia earns for every man, woman and child being $7000 more per person than it would be if we didnt have any migration. So her policies would actually make Australians poorer. And I think it is important to counter the policies that she puts forward because they are not an answer to economic security nor security more broadly.
MACDONALD: But youve not dealt with the question that I asked you more specifically about the Grand Mufti. You know who he is. Shes referred to his silence and he is not someone that engages readily with the media. I cant tell you how many times I have invited him on to programs to talk. Given the centrality of the issue of interfaith community relations, doesnt somebody in a position like that have some responsibility? And is she wrong to call that out?
WONG: Hamish I actually did answer your question.
MACDONALD: You moved it on to something very different quite quickly.
WONG: I did answer your question. I said that overnight I havent had a chance to trawl through all the public statements made by the Grand Mufti or Muslim leaders. But I dont think its fair to suggest that Muslim leaders have not spoken out.
MACDONALD: And him particularly?
WONG: As I said, Im not his press secretary so I havent sat down and looked through what he said. I hope maybe your producer could look at what has been said over the years. But what I would say to you is that it is wrong to point the finger at Muslim leaders and suggest the Muslim community has not stood up for Australian values because they have.
MACDONALD: Will there be a Same Sex Marriage Plebiscite on February 11 next year do you think?
WONG: Ive had on record for some time my concerns about a plebiscite and I think theyre widely shared. We saw yesterday many Gay and Lesbian, LGBTI organisations come out very strongly against a plebiscite because of their concerns and because of the way in which Mr Turnbull and Senator Brandis have chosen to handle this. The legislation was only released this week. The Labor Party obviously will have a Caucus when the Parliament next meets to finalise our position. But I think you can see from what we have been saying were very concerned about it. I note that Nick Xenophon and his team have also expressed concerns and I think these concerns are shared in the community. What I would say to you is thats obviously a matter for the Parliament. The easier thing for the Parliament to do frankly would be to vote on the Bill.
MACDONALD: It doesnt sound like you think there will be a plebiscite on February 11 next year?
WONG: Over time the idea of a plebiscite has been exposed for what it is which is a tactic by those who will never countenance equality. And I think increasingly across the Parliament, including from the Liberal Senate side, Senator Dean Smith, who has shown considerable courage on this issue, people are concerned about it and what it means. This is a debate that has been going on for such a long time.
MACDONALD: Are you playing tactics too by not just being clear about whether you are going to let the plebiscite happen or not?
WONG: No, Im not playing tactics. Ive told you my view. We go through our proper processes. Its pretty clear from what Bill has said, what Tanyas said, what I have said that we have deep concerns about a plebiscite and they have only been worsened by the ham-fisted way in which Malcolm Turnbull has approached this issue. Theres a very easy way through this, have a free vote, get the Parliament, get us to do what were paid to do, actually vote on this.
MACDONALD: But the Government does have a mandate doesnt it? Given that it took the plebiscite to the election? You acknowledge that mandate dont you?
WONG: Lets have a bit of history here. Malcolm Turnbull disagreed with a plebiscite.
MACDONALD: But he took it to the election as a policy. He won the election. He is in Government. Do you not acknowledge that there is a mandate there for this Government?
WONG: And the Labor Party has a mandate to oppose, because the position we were elected on was a Parliamentary vote. But lets remember a bit of history. Malcolm Turnbull opposed a plebiscite. He only copped it because he wanted to be leader of the Liberal Party and because he had to do a deal with the hard right who will never countenance equality. You cant keep compromising with these people because they are not for compromise. They are for ensuring that we do not achieve Marriage Equality. It was poignant I thought yesterday that on the 12 month anniversary Mr Turnbull is reduced to introducing a Bill into the House of Representatives that was Tony Abbotts policy that he doesnt agree with.
MACDONALD: Lyle Shelton told us earlier this week, on this program, that federal funding for the plebiscite could be used to talk about the consequences for programs like Safe Schools and genderless sex education. Is that okay? Will there be rules around public funding? Or should there be rules around public funding if indeed this plebiscite goes ahead?
WONG: Hamish, there shouldnt have been public funding. If were going to be giving taxpayers money, not only to hold an unnecessary, divisive and non-binding plebiscite and lets just remember that members of the Coalition have made very clear they will not vote in support of Marriage Equality, no matter what but if there is going to be public funding do we really want it to go to an organisation that describes the children of Same Sex couples as a Stolen Generation?
MACDONALD: Well leave it there. Senator Penny Wong thank you very much for your time this morning.
WONG: Good to speak with you.