ELLEN FANNING: Penny Wong is the Leader of the Labor Party in the Senate. Shes also Labors Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs. Senator Wong, congratulations on your re-election and welcome back to Breakfast.
SENATOR PENNY WONG, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IN THE SENATE: Good to be with you Ellen.
FANNING: What do you make of all this, we now have terms of reference for this Royal Commission and they are confined to the NT. We have a Commissioner in Brian Martin, former Chief Justice of the Northern Territory, who was part of the legal system involved in having so many children and adults in detention. And we seem to have had very limited consultation, if any, with Indigenous leaders, in coming up with this framework. How do you view it?
WONG: I think particularly your last point is the important one: there appears to have been very little consultation with the community and I think that is regrettable. I think that is disappointing from the Government. Lets remember that we offered immediate bipartisan support for the Royal Commission. And I think you had Tanya on your program this week as the Acting Leader and she made clear we do offer bipartisan support for the Royal Commission and we did offer to work with the Government on the terms of reference. Now, not only was the Opposition not consulted, it appears that many experts and advocates and communities in the Northern Territory havent been consulted. I think this was an opportunity for the Government to do that. I hope the Prime Minister will listen in the coming days to the people who are actually affected by these dreadful events and a system which is clearly failing too many Australians.
FANNING: George Brandis, the Attorney-General, has just told AM that he talked to Mick Gooda, who is the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner, about the Commission. But last night Mick Gooda told RN Drive that the Attorney didnt call him, he in fact called George Brandis, and when George Brandis called back he said hed think about consultation, and then Mick Gooda never heard anything back.
WONG: This is one of the problems with this Attorney-General, he is far too slippery for the position he holds. That is an example of the way in which George Brandis approaches too many issues, which is to not be completely upfront and to play some sort of odd wordsmith game with the Australian people. Hes the first law officer and what would have been wrong with consulting with Mick Gooda and other Indigenous representatives? I would have thought these were such shocking images, all of us have failed in our obligation to these young people and we ought put politics aside and not try and gild the lily and to be upfront with people, and to work with Indigenous communities to get the best outcome possible from this Commission.
FANNING: Lets talk about the scope of the Royal Commission. This is what the PM had to say late yesterday:
TURNBULL: The Royal Commission will identify the causes and the failures in the Northern Territory and provide lessons applicable, or lessons from which, I should say, other correctional institutions and child protection institutions in Australia can learn from, to ensure that theyre not repeated elsewhere.
FANNING: This is to be a six month Royal Commission, focused very much on the Northern Territory. Do you accept that thats the best way to proceed?
WONG: I think the first order priority is to deal with the Territory, but as Tanya and others have said, I think there should be an opportunity to extend the scope of the inquiry if thats required. We know that the incarceration of our Indigenous peoples is a national issue, it needs national action. And I think whilst the Government may wish to deal with these most pressing issues first, I think there should be an opportunity down the track to extend the scope of the inquiry if thats required.
FANNING: The choice of the former NT Chief Justice Brian Martin to lead the Commission, he is highly credentialed, but Ive read criticisms, not personally, of Justice Martin, but more generally that the NT judiciary is part of the problem. Should the Prime Minister have sought someone from outside the Territory to lead this?
WONG: I think perhaps consideration ought be given to the possibility of additional Commissioners. I think that this is a Royal Commission that would probably benefit from, for example, an Indigenous Commissioner. So I think the Government should consider and its not unusual to have more than one member of a Royal Commission - so I think this is a circumstance in which it merits consideration for the Government to consider additional Commissioners, such as a person from the Indigenous community.
FANNING: And certainly other Royal Commissions have had a group of Commissioners leading them. How many people do you think would be optimal?
WONG: Look, Im not the Attorney-General and were not in government. What we have said we have been prepared to consult with the Government on terms of reference and the structure of the Commission. I understand that offer hasnt been taken up. What we would say is if we want the Royal Commission, I think, to have the confidence of particularly the communities in the Northern Territory, it would benefit from having an Indigenous Commissioner included.
FANNING: The Prime Minister has expressed his dismay, as many others have, that there were so many inquiries as to what was going on in youth detention in the Northern Territory, that the allegations that were brought very forcefully home to Australians on Monday night on Four Corners were widely reported, that thered been a public debate in the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly about the use of mechanical restraints on children. Justice Martin says the issue of whether racism played a role will be one that he will explore, even though its not mentioned in the terms of reference. Whats your view?
WONG: About whether racism is an issue when it comes to Indigenous incarceration?
FANNING: Yes.
WONG: I think self-evidently we have rates of incarceration of Indigenous peoples at vastly greater numbers than the non-Indigenous population. So we have to ask ourselves some very serious questions, I think, as a society about what drives that. Now, Labor went to the last election saying we should have justice targets, we should be trying to reduce the number of Indigenous people who are incarcerated. Its disappointing the Government has not taken that up. But I hope this Royal Commission is an opportunity for people to actually look squarely in the face of this issue for which we all must take responsibility. Now, I think it has been disappointing to see some politicians, particularly in the NT, who have chosen to not square up on this, we all need to.
FANNING: In terms of what might be done, we spoke yesterday to Juan Mendez, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture. Heres what he told us:
MENDEZ: We think that the Optional Protocol has to be signed and ratified by all states, but also has to be implemented, including the creation of a national preventive mechanism, that would have a capacity to do surprise visits in detention centres of this sort, and of any other sort. And I believe very strongly that that would be a very powerful incentive to deter guards from committing the kind of atrocities that we are talking about.
FANNING: Hes talking there about Australia ratifying the Optional Protocol on Torture, allowing for surprise inspections. Is that whats needed?
WONG: Lets let the Commission do its work. Lets do that, lets encourage the Government to appoint an Indigenous Commissioner and to work closely with Indigenous communities about this. And most importantly, when the Commission does report lets have broad support across political parties and across the country for making sure its recommendations are implemented appropriately.
FANNING: Now weve heard overnight that there have been more executions in Indonesia, the first since the killing of the Australians. Could I have your reaction to that?
WONG: We, as always, continue to advocate for the end of the death penalty. We continue to advocate to all nations who continue to have the death penalty not to continue with its implementation. It is such an awful thing to see any executions occur and we stand with the Government on our opposition to the death penalty wherever it occurs.
FANNING: Apparently the Prime Minister will make a captains call today about whether or not to back Kevin Rudds bid to be Secretary-General of the UN. I do have to ask, I mean Labor didnt want him to lead your party, why should be lead the international community?
WONG: Ellen, there is robust political debate probably around every candidate for the UNSG. John Key is supporting Helen Clark, should we go back and have a look at their debates when they faced up against each other in their domestic politics? This is an issue about national interest and nation first, party second and certainly petty politics a long way last. What weve seen from this Government is a pretty extraordinary approach. Its a bizarre process. We have had senior Cabinet Ministers out trying to position the Prime Minister and undermine the Foreign Minister. Weve got Cabinet government which is apparently unable to make a decision, theyve squibbed it.
This is really a very poor and bizarre decision making process. The Prime Ministers got to show some leadership. Mr Turnbulls got to show some leadership on this. This is ultimately a question about whats in the national interest. I am sure that the Foreign Minister would not be advocating for this position if it were not on the advice of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. If their best advice is that Mr Rudd is a credible candidate and it is in Australias national interest for him to be nominated remember hes got to compete on his merits but to be nominated by Australia. I think the Prime Minister would need to explain to the Australian people what is the national interest reason for him squibbing it. Weve had Eric Abetz out and other members of the right, who have done nothing but engage in partisan and personal attacks. And whatever peoples view about particular candidates, about Kevin, what they havent addressed is the national interest, thats whats important here.
FANNING: Senator Wong, thank you so much for your time.
WONG: Good to speak with you.