SUBJECTS: Emerging capability gap in Australia’s submarine fleet; defence spending; Mr Morrison playing political games with national security; diplomatic capability; Australia’s relationship with China; climate change; Ukraine’s calls for Russian Ambassador to Australia to be expelled.
 
ANDY PARK, HOST: Senator Penny Wong is the Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister. Welcome to RN Drive.
 
SENATOR PENNY WONG, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Good to be with you. 
 
PARK: Anthony Albanese says Labor is committed to the AUKUS submarine agreement, based on the advice you've seen. But you're worried about the capability gaps between now and 2040. All we really heard today was the possibility of Tomahawk missiles being fitted to the Collins class submarines. Is that it? How will that fill the gap?
 
WONG: You've correctly identified the major problem with the Government's announcements around submarines. And that is they announced, with a lot of fanfare, nuclear-propelled submarines down the track. Now we support the acquisition of nuclear-propelled submarines because of the capability argument that was put to us. But it was made very clear to me in Senate Estimates, when I asked questions about this, that the earliest delivery of the nuclear submarine is beyond the date of the retirement of a number of the Collins-class. Now that's a problem for us. Obviously in Opposition - these are multi-billion, multi-decade contracts - we're not going to be in the position of making announcements about acquisition. But what Anthony did do today, something Scott Morrison has never done, which is to say we would actually address the capability gap. We will actually focus on delivering something which dealt with that capability gap.
 
PARK: So, are you leaving open the option to cancel this AUKUS agreement and embark on something entirely new if elected?
 
WONG: No, I think the point is one about how long it will take and therefore what we have to do in the interim. And what Anthony made clear, is that is something the government of the day needs to deal with.
 
PARK: He also highlighted capability gaps and blowouts on Defence projects under the Coalition, saying a government should be judged on what it actually delivers. Why should voters have confidence in Albanese Government delivering on foreign policy when we haven't seen any detailed costings?
 
WONG: I think it's been very clear, we have said very clearly we will match the Government's expenditure. We have committed to the Government's expenditure on Defence to date - we have backed that in, and we've made clear we will match the Government's commitment to at least 2% of GDP. And, no doubt, during the budget, we'll see the budget figures presented and then subsequent to that, prior to the election, both parties will have to demonstrate their costings to the Australian people. But let's remember the reason Mr Morrison wants to fight on this. He wants to fight because he's desperate to create a fight. He doesn't want to talk about his failures. He doesn't want to talk about the things he hasn't got right. What he wants to do is create a fight because he thinks it will suit him politically.
 
PARK: But it takes two to tango. Is Labor's position, in joining him on this fight, actually raising these national security issues up and out of proportion?
 
WONG: Well hang on - we have offered this government bipartisan support on Defence acquisition and capability, on key foreign policy decisions and national security decisions. In relation to China, we have consistently offered bipartisan support. The person who is trying to create difference where there is none is Mr Morrison - and he is doing so for political purposes.
 
PARK: The one thing that Labor hasn't offered is how much more you would spend and in what areas. I mean Michael Fullilove, the head of the Lowy Institute said today that DFAT funding has flatlined and the agency has become marginalised in Canberra. Would you go further into some of the spending and where that spending might happen if you're elected? 
 
WONG: Well, look, a couple points about that. The first is the marginalisation; Michael is right. I think that the Department of Foreign Affairs, regrettably the Minister for Foreign Affairs and foreign policy objectives have been subordinate to Scott Morrison's domestic political interests. Over and over again, he has sought to use foreign policy and foreign policy decisions for his own political purposes. And there are many examples of that over the period of his government. So what I think needs to occur is you need to return foreign policy to the centre of our strategic planning. We need to ensure that we deploy all aspects of state power - that includes diplomatic, as well as strategic and military...
 
PARK: And soft power? And soft power as well?
 
WONG: And that is why I have also said we should rebuild our development assistance program. Obviously, we'll have to do that in a fiscally responsible way. But during a time when Australia needs to expand our power and influence in our region, as our region is being reshaped, it is not the time for the Government to continue to cut development assistance or aid. And it's not the time for the Government to play politics with foreign policy. Now, we've made some announcements. We've announced a special envoy to Southeast Asia because we recognise the importance of stronger partnerships in the region. You've seen, Anthony today spoke about a climate diplomacy initiative, including co-hosting a Conference of the Parties with Pacific partners and a partnership on climate and infrastructure with Indonesia. So, we have put some detail out there, but there is a lot more to do.
 
PARK: On RN Drive, Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister, Penny Wong is my guest. Today, Anthony Albanese said that he would likely have approached China's demands of Australia in much the same way. But he said there's been a political misuse of the stoush. What did he mean by that?
 
WONG: I think a Prime Minister standing on the floor of the House of Representatives and claiming that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition is a Manchurian Candidate, and suggesting he is the puppet of some foreign government is a level of political weaponising, of the most irresponsible type. Now, the reality is that our relationship with China is changing because China has changed, and that means our relationship has changed. 
 
PARK: So just on that...
 
WONG: But just let me finish if I may, sorry. But none of that is made easier by trying to use this for partisan political purposes.
 
PARK: China's new Ambassador to Australia recently tried to elevate the tone, saying that he was willing to actively develop a friendship. If you were in government, how would you have received those comments? Is it time, again to quote Xiao Qian, to look to the future?
 
WONG: Well, ultimately the nature of the relationship will depend on both parties. And we would say that China has to end the economic coercion, the trade measures that have been foisted upon Australia. But I would note that Foreign Minister Payne has met with the Chinese Ambassador in recent days, and I think that's the right thing to do. Because whatever differences we have, it is important for us to engage, never taking a backward step on our interests, but to continue to engage. We will have enduring differences between Australia and China because of who we are and because of our interests, so our values and our interests, regardless of who is in government. They have to be managed calmly and consistently. And that is the approach we would take.
 
PARK: One area where Labor has sought to highlight a difference is climate and climate change. Looking at Anthony Albanese speech today, environmental security is one of the four pillars announced. The Government, both state, in New South Wales and Federal, has been castigated in recent days for its lack of preparation for climate threats, like floods. How would an Albanese Government make up for that in the short term?
 
WONG: You know one of the things that I always remember whenever I see these natural disasters and the dreadful circumstances that so many Australians find themselves in, is I remember that this is what governments were warned about a decade ago. And in the time that the Coalition has been in power, we've really done nothing to prepare for what scientists told us would occur, which is we will have more extreme weather events. I remember saying that when I was Climate Minister between 2007 and 2010. But all the work that we tried to do on that obviously was undone. There will be time, and there should be time, once we get through the crisis that is currently unfolding, still going along the east coast of Australia. And our hearts go out to the people in New South Wales, northern New South Wales particularly, but also in Queensland, about what has happened. There will be time to work out how we can do this better. And we've spoken about making sure that the Emergency Response Fund can be used better, including to improve our resilience. But I think the country is demonstrably unprepared. And instead of focusing on that Mr Morrison wanted to talk about national security and an announcement about troops which won't be delivered to 2040.
 
PARK: Senator, to other matters of foreign policy. The head of Ukraine's diplomatic mission in Australia has again called for the Russian Ambassador to be expelled from Australia. The Foreign Minister says that's not currently being considered. Should it be?
 
WONG: Sure, it should be considered. Whether or not it takes place is a judgement the Foreign Minister of the day has to make. I can completely understand why the Ukrainian diplomat has called for this, particularly given the horrific actions of Russia overnight, bombing a maternity hospital - an illegal and immoral act, in an illegal and immoral war. Ultimately, what the Foreign Minister has to decide is the message best sent through expulsion or is it in our interest to continue to have lines of communication to Russia, both here in Australia, but as importantly, also in Moscow.
 
PARK: What's the value of maintaining diplomatic channels with Russia if I hadn't listened to any messaging and actions?
 
WONG: And that's, you know, that is the judgment she has to make. And over time, as events worsen, I think that will be an increasingly challenging judgment to make. But it is a matter, ultimately, for the Foreign Minister to determine; does she think it's more important for us to be able to put our views not only here but also in Russia, to the Russian government about what is occurring.
 
PARK: If you were in office today, would you support and expel the Russian Ambassador from Australia?
 
WONG: I would make the judgement I thought was in Australia's interests.
 
PARK: Senator, appreciate your time tonight. 
 
WONG: Great to be with you.

Authorised by Paul Erickson, ALP, Canberra.