HENRY: Penny, good morning to you.
WONG: Good morning, good to be with you.
HENRY: I know you see merely having this vote, merely talking about the issue, as something of a victory, dont you?
WONG: I think in Australia social change, social progress, often isnt won the first time around. Things like Paid Parental Leave, I think, were argued for for a number of decades before we finally got it. So, we might lose the vote, but the campaign wont stop. And I think the sentiment in the Australian community has really shifted towards equality.
HENRY: This for you, though, is more than purely academic, this is personally interesting, isnt it?
WONG: Of course, this is in fact an intensely personal debate. And obviously not just about me and my relationship, but about many same sex couples in Australia. And their friends and families. One of the things thats been most moving for me in this debate is the parents of gay and lesbian Australians who come to Parliament and say we want you to make sure my son or my daughter can have equal rights when it comes to marriage.
HENRY: So, given that youre personally affected by this, are you to any degree upset at the level of theatre that is surrounding whats happening today, and maybe the vote wont be made until tomorrow, because so many people want to grandstand and speak on it?
WONG: I think what is upsetting for many Australians are some of the things which are being said in this debate. And I think that some of the contributions in the public debate havent been helpful to a more tolerant and respectful Australia. But I dont think thats whats important, actually.
I think whats important is the fact that weve had a lot of momentum in this campaign weve seen people who previously have been opposed come out and publicly say theyre for it. And ultimately this is simply about making sure that things like love, commitment and respect which are the most important things in relationships is what we recognise.
HENRY: You would know that many people who are proponents of the right of same sex couples to get married are very upset that the Government has pushed for this vote today knowing that it wont go through, thinking that, really, this is more about politics than it is about gay marriage. Its more about getting this off the political agenda before the election.
WONG: As long as Tony Abbott is Leader of the Liberal Party, and as long as Tony Abbott holds his position which he will that he will not grant a free vote to members of his party, then this Bill was always going to struggle. And it doesnt matter if we have this vote this week, or in six months time, as long as the Liberal Party hold their position, it will be very difficult for the legislation to pass.
So I hope we can have a vote one day where the Liberal Party, the party of freedom of choice, actually gives people a choice on a very personal issue.
HENRY: It is slightly anachronistic, isnt it, that that is the party that wont allow a vote on this issue; an individual vote.
WONG: I think thats right.
HENRY: Yeah, it is anachronistic. But, weve talked about Tony Abbott. Lets talk about Julia Gillard. Are you personally disappointed that Julia Gillard holds the view that she does?
WONG: The Prime Minister and I have had a different view on this issue for quite a while, and our views are on the public record. I accept she has a different view, and Ill continue to put my view to you and to anybody who wants to listen.
HENRY: Does she want to listen? Have you ever thought, right, Im going to take her out for a drink, Im going to sit her down, and Im going to make her see the light?
WONG: (laughs) Thats not generally how I deal with people, trying to get them to see the light, Paul, but the PMs had this position for a long time. I understand that she has a different position shes entitled to it.
Im pleased that we have a position now in our party where our platform is pro-marriage equality. Im very pleased that that change was successful at National Conference. And we obviously have a free vote in the Labor Party, which is very unusual for the Labor Party, on this issue.
HENRY: So, weve been talking this up, but at the end of the day, is it not true to say that when this vote fails, it will be a setback of, perhaps, many years for your cause?
WONG: For our cause. For the cause of people who believe in equality. I came into Parliament ten years ago, and if you think about how much this debate has moved in that decade which does seem like a long time, doesnt it (laughs) but when I first came in, we still had discrimination in federal laws in relation to social security entitlements, Medicare, all of those things.
HENRY: Sure.
WONG: So, I think in ten years theres been enormous progress. So Im always more optimistic about social change.
HENRY: Arguably, though, for same sex couples that have been waiting for the last decade, and more, to formally have their relationship acknowledged, this is a very, very long wait. Can I just ask you, really, really quickly Penny, is it possible that at the end of the day, states like New South Wales will vote in favour of it and federal politics wont stand in the way, and so people will travel to New South Wales, travel to Tasmania, to get married?
WONG: That may well happen. I think equality is a very persistent aspiration, Paul, and the fact that the Parliament might not measure up is not going to stop people wanting equal rights.
HENRY: That is a very nice way to end it for now. Penny Wong, thank you very much for joining us.
WONG: Good to be with you.
ENDS