JOURNALIST: Joining us in our Sydney studio this morning for our regular political debate is shadow immigration minister Scott Morrison and from Adelaide this morning we have Finance Minister Penny Wong as well.
Scott, if I can start with you first of all, the new immigration detention centre has just been opened in Darwin 1500 beds. We had the Pacific Solution. Is this the Darwin Solution? Is this an admission by the Federal Government that its failed to stop the boats?
MORRISON: Its an inevitable consequence of over 10,000 people arriving on more than 200 boats. The Government has announced 4,900 additional beds in our detention network just since the election. I mean, theyve announced and opened more beds than they have in public hospitals. And I dont think thats a good record. Theres one reason for it, their border protection policies have failed and this is the inevitable consequence of that.
JOURNALIST: Senator Wong, is it an admission that youve simply failed to be able to stem the flood of people coming down from the north?
WONG: This is a centre which enables us to make sure we can rationalise some of the detention facilities that people were staying in like motels, including when John Howard was in power. Its a sensible solution to make sure we can continue to maintain our mandatory detention arrangements and to get families and vulnerable people into the community but to maintain the mandatory detention regime.
Can I say in response to Scotts slogans again, lets remember the primary reason why people move countries and try and go somewhere else is whats happening in their home country. Thats when the numbers go up. And we see that now. We see people flowing into Italy because of whats happening in North Africa. Thats the reality.
Scott does have a lot of slogans. He doesnt tell people that the Howard Government spent hundreds of millions of dollars for example on Nauru. And most of those people came to Australia anyway. The primary reason why people leave countries and go to another country or seek to go to another country as an asylum seeker is because of humanitarian crises in their home country. We saw 43 million displaced people in 2009. Thats the context of the Australian debate.
MORRISON: Theres been 10.4 million refugees around the world in the last few years. And thats actually the same as its been now for many, many years. Penny likes to talk about the cost. On this program just a week ago, I pointed out that this Government asked for another $290 million just for this year for asylum seeker management. Now that is more than the running cost for the entire six years of the Pacific Solution. She denied it a week ago. But I produced the evidence of a statement of Senator Evans in February 2008. Thats the comparison of the cost. When you have that many people come Penny -
WONG: Thats just wrong, Scott
MORRISON: Penny, read the document.
WONG: Youre just wrong. I mean, youre just wrong.
MORRISON: $289.5 million for Nauru.
WONG: I know you want to run these slogans, Scott. Youre just not telling people, youre not telling people the truth
MORRISON: You cant just say its not true and not produce the evidence, Penny. I produced the evidence to back up my claim. You produce your evidence.
WONG: And what Im saying to you is we know that the Nauru solution that you put in place cost hundreds of millions of dollars.
MORRISON: It cost $289.5 million. Thats true. That was your figure.
WONG: Well the Nauru solution cost hundreds of millions of dollars.
MORRISON: $289.5 million it cost.
WONG: What I am saying, if I could just finish this sentence please, what Im saying is this. I know you want to pretend there is a simple solution. I know you want to run another slogan campaign. Thats all that the Opposition does.
MORRISON: No I want to fix your failed policies, Penny. Thats what I want to do.
WONG: Let me finish please, Scott. Let me finish, Scott. What I am saying is this is a problem. This is a public policy problem and we have to remember that the context of this is millions of displaced people around the world. Thats the primary push factor. Thats the primary push factor for people to come to Australia. Thats the context for this debate. I know the Opposition want to pretend that isnt the context. But that is the international context of the debate.
MORRISON: Well the facts dont back it up, Penny. 200 boats, 10,000 people since you started relaxing the policy. 6500 people in the detention network -
WONG: And the facts dont -
MORRISON: Now let me finish this time, Penny. More than 50 per cent of those people there for more than six months. Thats your record. You put the asylum freeze in place which increased the amount of time people spent in detention. That was a discriminatory asylum freeze which discriminated against Afghan and Sri Lankan asylum seekers. Thats the only discriminatory immigration policy I am aware of that has been introduced -
WONG: You are sounding more and more shrill.
MORRISON: You can talk over me if you like, Penny, but you dont seem to want to be able to confront the facts of you own failed Governments policy. You just say its wrong but you cant back it up. Our policies led to less than 300 people arriving in six years. Youve had more than 10,000 in two and a half years. The Australian people understand that.
JOURNALIST: Alright, lets hear from the Senator. Senator, yes?
WONG: Well we can spend the entire time talking about this, which Im sure Scott wants. But what I would say again is this. The primary reason why people leave countries is whats happening in their home country. Scott talks about their solution. We know many boats arrived under John Howard. We know that the Temporary Protection Visa arrangements didnt stop people coming. And we know his policy also cost hundreds of millions of dollars.
So Scott can, you know, in a very shrill way keep having this argument. I think what people deserve is a calm measured discussion about what is an international problem. We are working through a regional solution and we are also ensuring we have proper detention arrangements in place. I think that is a more sensible discussion than the way in which Scott wants to approach it today and always.
JOURNALIST: Alright lets move onto another subject for the moment. We seem to have growing evidence, Senator, of a Labor backbench caucus - if you like - revolt over the deals that the Government is now doing with the Greens and the independents where your backbenchers are actually fronting up to the cameras and voicing their concerns?
WONG: I dont think thats a fair assessment of whats occurring. What were doing when it comes to, for example, the climate change debate is working through a Multi Party Committee. Yes, that includes the Greens. It also includes Mr Windsor and Mr Oakeshott. And the reason we have to work with them is the Opposition, despite previously supporting action on climate change, now simply says no, we dont want to do anything, and is running a fear campaign.
We think it is a responsible economic reform. We want to work through this in a sensible way. We are talking to other parties including yes, the Greens, yes Mr Oakeshott, yes Mr Windsor. We would be happy to talk to the Opposition if they wanted to actually participate in this discussion but they dont. They just want to run a scare campaign and a fear mongering campaign on this issue which is so important to Australias future.
JOURNALIST: But Senator, your own backbenchers are fronting the cameras and claiming this?
WONG: I think theres always going to be some debate about issues. What I want to make very clear is were the Labor Party and we govern with Labor values. Were also a minority Government and we have to have discussions with other parties and other individuals to get our legislation through.
An example is yesterday we saw Senator Xenophon agree to support the flood levy to back the rebuild in Queensland. But I think there is a question here of why are we in the position of having to negotiate legislation with Senator Xenophon, or the Greens, or Mr Oakeshott, or Mr Windsor? Were happy to do that, but why are we in that position?
JOURNALIST: Good point. Scott Morrison, why be so obstructionist?
WONG: The Opposition has just thrown things down and walked away.
JOURNALIST: How do you answer that? Why be so obstructionist?
MORRISON: Were going to oppose this great big tax based on a great big lie. This Prime Minister
WONG: You used to support it Scott.
MORRISON: I let you speak there for quite a long time.
WONG: You used to support it.
MORRISON: OK Ill let you go again if you like. Before the last election
WONG: You were one of the people backing Malcolm Turnbull and you used to support it. You had a change of position.
JOURNALIST: Lets hear from Scott.
MORRISON: If youd let me answer. Before the last election we all know the Prime Minister said there would be no carbon tax. The Treasurer described the claim that there would be as hysterical. Shes walked away from that commitment and she wants to walk away from the debate on it now. We oppose a carbon tax. We think weve got a better way with our direct action plan which addresses a whole series of issues, which Penny also knows can work. Weve also said very clearly we oppose more taxes when we think the savings can be found in the budget. Now this Government doesnt want to find savings, doesnt want to make hard decisions, whether its on this or on border protection or anything else. They just want to tax, tax, tax. And this great big new tax, on the carbon tax, is based on a great big lie. And the Australian people have found this Government out on this and theyre frankly sick of it.
JOURNALIST: Can I just touch on one other subject while weve got everyone here this morning.
WONG: Can I just respond to something here.
JOURNALIST: Yes, sorry.
WONG: I just want to respond to something Scotts said. First, he talks about his policy. First, it doesnt work. Second, it will cost $30 billion. That comes out of let me finish please that comes out of the pockets of Australian families. So the Opposition is going to put their hands into the wallets and purses of Australian, take $30 billion out over the next ten years. Thats their policy. The other point Id make is this: Scott used to support this. He now doesnt.
MORRISON: Ive never supported a carbon tax.
WONG: The only thing thats changed is the politics.
MORRISON: I never supported a carbon tax.
WONG: You supported a price on carbon.
MORRISON: I have never supported a carbon tax, Penny. Ever.
WONG: You supported an emissions trading scheme under Malcolm Turnbull.
MORRISON: You seem to forget Copenhagen. You were there. You remember it. You dont seem to want to talk about Copenhagen now. A lot has changed since then, Penny.
WONG: Im happy to talk about it.
JOURNALIST: One other subject just to broach while were here. The flood tax for Queensland. Clearly theres going to be a problem by raising a fee off the rest of Australia to pay for damage in a state that simply didnt insure its own assets. Why not just put this through as a budget measure, Senator, rather than reaching out to the people?
WONG: We have funded two thirds of this package from savings measures, from cuts to expenditure. And we think thats the responsible way to go. Lets remember this is the most costly natural disaster that Australia is likely to have seen. I think all of us who watched what happened or lived through it, for those people who live in Queensland we saw the enormous devastation, the enormous destruction. Thats an enormous amount to rebuild.
Were very pleased that were able to negotiate passage of this legislation. Its about giving certainty to Queenslanders as they rebuild. Were serious about that. And we think thats the right thing to do.
JOURNALIST: Is it fair for the rest of Australia, Scott?
MORRISON: We dont think the tax should be introduced. We think the savings should be found in the budget. And I think Australians fell for a government that wasted $2 billion on pink batts, that has overspent their budget on border protection by a billion dollars; that this Government just simply hasnt got the right to go to the Australian people and say, look, we cant stop spending money, so were just going to have to ask for more taxes. Of course were all committed to the reconstruction effort in Queensland, thats not an issue. Whats at issue is that this Government wants to tax and the Coalition doesnt.
JOURNALIST: Senator, one last word before we go.
WONG: Id just make the point that the Coalitions own policy on this doesnt add up. They havent found the savings to fund this. So really what Scott has said is not accurate.
MORRISON: Youve never tried.
WONG: If youre serious about rebuilding Queensland, then you have to put forward a sensible package. The Opposition hasnt done that. The Government has. And the reason is we are determined to help Queensland communities rebuild from this terrible disaster.
JOURNALIST: Alright, thank you very much both of you again for coming in on our weekly debate. Minister Penny Wong and shadow minister Scott Morrison. Thanks again.
-ends-