HOST: Joining us in our Sydney studios for our regular political debate is shadow immigration minister Scott Morrison and from Parliament House in Canberra, Finance Minister and former environment minister Penny Wong.
Senator, good morning to you.
WONG: Good morning.
HOST: Just before we kick off our debate on the obvious issues out of Parliament, we see the death toll has risen there. Senator and you particularly as shadow immigration minister what are your thoughts?
MORRISON: Well look, I think whats happening in New Zealand puts everything in, I think, perspective for all Australians and I think what Ricky Ponting is doing over there with the game I think says what we all feel and our hearts are with them.
HOST: And Senator?
WONG: An enormous human tragedy. You know, you just referenced the death toll which tragically is rising. But I think what we all remember is behind every one of those numbers is a family, a group of friends, people who are grieving. And our hearts go out to them.
HOST: Yes indeed. Now the main issue seems to be of course with the Prime Minister Julia Gillard promising voters no carbon tax if she was elected and now just six months later she is doing precisely that. This is clearly a broken election promise. Senator, how do you rationalise what she said before the election and what she actually said in Parliament yesterday?
WONG: Ron, the Australian people at the last election I think made pretty clear they wanted action on climate change and they voted for a Parliament that is prepared to do that. And what the Prime Minister is responding to is the urgent need to take action. The reality is this is a challenge thats not going to go away. Its a tough challenge. But ultimately, its about recognising that the costs for the next generation, the costs for the nation, if we dont act, are higher than if we act now.
So weve laid out our mechanism. Theres obviously a lot more discussion, a lot more consultation. Well try and go through that responsibly and appropriately in consultation with the Australian people.
HOST: When you were the Environment Minister you felt the blowtorch on this very issue and clearly the Prime Minister went to the election. Were just going to play you this grab of what she said before the election to make that quite clear.
[Grab played]
Well Senator, thats absolutely plain: there will be no tax under a Government I lead. Is she leading the Government or are the Greens leading the Government?
WONG: No, the Prime Minister is leading the Government but shes made clear that this Parliament is one that has been voted for by the Australian people and its a Parliament that does want to take action on climate change.
I dont think anybody could look at what we did last term or at the last election and think that we didnt believe climate change was something that needed to be addressed. We want to do this soberly, responsibly in the face of an Opposition that simply is going to say no. I mean this is an Opposition, lets remember Ron, who came out to oppose the health deal before the deal had been struck. And I think that really says something about the extent to which theyre simply going to oppose whatever the Government puts up no matter whether its in the public interest.
HOST: Scott?
MORRISON: This is the big lie carbon tax. Theres no doubt about that. The Prime Minister made it crystal clear before the election there would be no carbon tax under a Government she leads. This is the big lie carbon tax. Now she needs to face up to that reality that shes basically done to the Australia people in her betrayal in this what she did to Kevin Rudd before the last election. I mean the Australian people are now feeling what it feels like to be betrayed directly by this Prime Minister. She said there wouldnt be a carbon tax. Shes now going to put $300 on every electricity bill thats coming to the Australian people
HOST: We dont know that.
MORRISON: Another 6 cents a litre. These are figures that have come out officially. These arent our figures.
HOST: No, theyre not official figures, theyre estimates from
WONG: Thats simply not true.
MORRISON: If the Government is going to argue that this is not going to increase prices on electricity, its not going to increase prices on petrol, its not going to increase prices right across the board, well let them make that argument. The Australian people will know it. The Prime Minister says that the Parliament has changed. Well there was 149, Rob Oakeshott OK maybe 148 members, who went to the last election saying no carbon tax. Now apparently
HOST: Its hardly a clear mandate is it?
MORRISON: ...two beats 148 or one beats 149. I mean Bob Brown is in power here. Labor might be in Government but Bob Browns in power.
HOST: Well youve got to say, Senator Wong, the pictures in the newspapers today such as that one there that show Bob Brown at the podium and the Prime Minister looking at him almost as a (inaudible). He does appear to be doing the talking here and leading the charge. You have to question really who is in charge of this Government.
WONG: Ron, I dont accept that. The Prime Minister is in charge and the Prime Minister is the one who has said this is the reform that we need for the future.
But can I just respond to a couple of Scotts points
MORRISON: What did she say before the election Penny?
WONG: Scott, let me respond to a couple of your points. The figure Scott uses about the amount he says things are going to increase has absolutely no basis in fact.
MORRISON: Well what will they be?
WONG: Absolutely no basis in fact because the price has not been set. The price has not been set.
MORRISON: Will it go up?
WONG: The second point Id make is that John Howard went to the 2007 election promising a price on carbon. There are people in Scotts own party who support a price on carbon. Scott was part of a group that toppled Malcolm Turnbull because Malcolm Turnbull wanted a price on carbon.
So if people want to talk about who said what, lets remember this is something that both sides of politics have struggled with because it is a complex issue, its a tough issue. But its the right thing for Australias future and thats - MORRISON: You make a point about John Howard. John Howard when he was going to do things took them to elections. He took a GST to the election, he even took the point you raised before to an election. So when this side of politics says theyre going to put on a tax, they take it to an election. Now this Government refused to take to a double dissolution the ETS at the last election. They squibbed from that, they ran away from it. They said they werent going to have a carbon tax. Then they come out on the other side and they say, well we are actually now going to have one. So I think the form, Penny, the form, Penny, is in. And I think the Australian people are pretty clear about what the form is.
HOST: The argument clearly is going to be endless on this
WONG: Well I dont accept that Ron
HOST: But Senator, Ill just move on
WONG: I dont accept that Ron. Can I just say
HOST: Yes alright.
WONG: I just want to say this. This is going to be a debate where youll see that sort of aggression from Scott, from Mr Abbott. Youll see all sorts of figures, youll see all sorts of attacks. But you know, the one thing they cant answer is this: why is it wrong for us to act on climate change? The one thing they cant talk about
MORRISON: Weve got our direct action plan Penny. You know that.
WONG: Which doesnt work
MORRISON: $10 billion on the table
WONG: But hang on, come on Scott.
MORRISON: You say we dont have a plan, we do.
WONG: Which doesnt work, which doesnt work.
MORRISON: Youre doing similar things.
WONG: The one thing they cant answer is why wouldnt we want to make sure our children and our grandchildren have lower risks when it comes to the climate than we would otherwise have. Why wouldnt we want to make things a bit better for them? Thats the question they cant answer. Thats what this debate is about.
HOST: Senator, the information the Prime Minister has released so far is again squibbing a little bit in that she hasnt actually given us a figure on what youd estimate is the cost per tonne. Where the estimates are around, as Scott was saying, around $26 a tonne which would add approximately $300 to an electricity bill for an average house. But we still dont know the figure and once we do at the end of the three to five years, we go into a free market trade so there is no control at all. How do we tidy up those loose ends?
WONG: Well Ron, you raise a whole range of legitimate questions and what the Prime Minister said yesterday is, look, this is the first step which is outlining the broad design of the mechanism. But she also said as did Greg Combet theres a lot more work to be done. Theres a lot of consultation, a lot of dialogue with the Australian people that go to some of the issues that youve outlined. And you know, we have to do that work with the Multi Party Committee and with the Australian people and we will do that.
So we havent announced the final product. Weve announced the first step in what is going to be a many stepped conversation, a many step walk with the Australian people on this very important, very difficult policy issue of how do we respond to climate change.
HOST: It clearly is. Scott?
MORRISON: Well the Prime Minister lied to the Australian people before the last election clearly. She said there wouldnt be carbon tax and now there is. And its going to increase every year Bob Brown said. Thats what he said.
WONG: Well did you lie before, did you lie before 2007, Scott, when you said you did want a price on carbon and now you dont?
MORRISON: I didnt go to the last election. I wasnt in that Parliament.
WONG: Or did Tony Abbott lie when he supported an emissions trading scheme? Did he lie then before he changed his mind?
MORRISON: Penny, Penny, you can try and run away from this all you like.
WONG: Your side of politics has changed constantly on this issue and thats the reality.
MORRISON: The Prime Minister said on Channel 10, she said it on Channel 10 before the election, there would not be a carbon tax as the Prime Minister of any Government I lead.
WONG: And Tony Abbott said in the national media that he wanted an emissions trading scheme.
MORRISON: And we went to an election saying we dont support a carbon tax. So were acting consistently with what we took to the election.
WONG: Well Scott
MORRISON: I suggest the Prime Minister will find out from the Australian people that she should have honoured her promise because she clearly hasnt.
HOST: Senator Wong, youre clearly at a disadvantage being down in Canberra there. Ill give you just the final word, if youd be so good.
WONG: (laughs) I am clearly. Well Scott, at the 2007 election, John Howard said hed do this. Malcolm Turnbull said hed do this and Tony Abbott when Malcolm Turnbull was leader said hed also do this. But if you want to talk about
MORRISON: We never proposed a carbon tax.
WONG: (laughs) Hey, hey can I finish?
HOST: Ive just given the Senator the final word here.
WONG: So if you want to talk about changing positions Scott, I think you should turn around and have a look in your own party room because theyre the experts at it.
HOST: OK. Thank you very much Senator. Minister Wong, Penny Wong, Shadow Minister Scott Morrison. Thank you very much. I know Senator Wong being in Canberra, youre out of touch with us sitting here at the desk so I apologise for that. But thank you very much for being part of our debate this morning.
WONG: (laughs) Just a long, long way away but hopefully not out of touch.
HOST: Not out of touch, youre quite right. Absolutely.
MORRISON: Thanks Penny.
WONG: See you next time.