BELLING: Were joined once more for our weekly debate by Finance Minister Penny Wong in Canberra, and shadow immigration minister Scott Morrison right here in the studio, thanks once again for both joining us this morning.
MORRISON: Gday.
WONG: Morning Tarsh.
BELLING: Senator Wong if I can start with you, we have of course reported widely this morning about this current economic crisis in Europe. There are now real fears of a serious worldwide recession. Are we at risk here?
WONG: Theres certainly a lot of volatility on world markets, theres certainly a lot of risk aversion because markets are concerned about the European sovereign debt risks, and those issues are weighing upon global markets. And Tarsh, whilst were not immune we arent immune what I would say is this, that our economy is in very good nick. We had the International Monetary Fund just recently commenting on the strength of the Australian economy and how much better of a position we are in than other advanced economies.
But what I would say also is this: what this reminds us is that this is a time for clarity, policy certainty for responsible fiscal policies. And it is very concerning, given this backdrop, that we see the Opposition, the shadow treasurer, walking away from a commitment to make sure his election costings are transparent. Walking away from the Parliamentary Budget Office, which is an initiative he previously supported.
And what I fear is that what we are seeing again is what we saw in the election campaign, where the Coalition stuffed up their costings. They had an $11 billion black hole which they sought to hide from the Australian people. This is not a time for responsible political parties to hide their costings. This is a time for transparency.
BELLING: Senator Wong if I can just interrupt there, on exactly that point, you talk about policy clarity. Considering the economic crisis were seeing overseas, what are we doing concentrating on the asylum seeker issue? And theres certainly no policy clarity there from the Government on this issue. Shouldnt we be focusing on the economic issues?
WONG: Tarsh, we wouldnt need to focus on this if Scott and his colleagues would just be responsible. We wouldnt need to focus on this if the Opposition would accept a simple proposition that the government of the day, whether its Labor or Liberal, has the right to determine its processing regimes, whether they be regional, offshore, or onshore. That is the proposition.
But what we see, regrettably, is extraordinary hypocrisy from the other side. Tony Abbott used to beat his chest about how tough on asylum seeker policy he is, but now hes signing up with the Australian Greens to stop the government of the day resolving this issue
BELLING: Scott if I can give you
WONG: And that really shows an extraordinary level of hypocrisy.
BELLING: Can I give you the option to respond there, and Id also say I think the majority of the Australian public feels that both sides of politics are playing politics about this issue, rather than looking after the humanity of people.
MORRISON: Look, this is a serious issue but let me make a couple of points. First of all on the issue of the economy. I mean now is the last time in the world, given the uncertainty that weve all spoken about, these are serious issues, that youd be introducing the worlds biggest carbon tax. Thats what this is about at the moment. And if the Government wants to go ahead with the worlds biggest carbon tax, thats their decision but we disagree with that, obviously.
Look, on the issue of the asylum debate, the only reason were having this debate now is because three and a half years ago, Kevin Rudd decided to abolish proven policies. And since then, this Government has had a crisis of competence all the way through. And what the Coalition has done in the Parliament this week has been to say, you can have the power to offshore process in 148 countries. There needs to be a clear safeguard that has always been in the Migration Act. We have always had a rock solid consistent policy on this issue for a decade. It is the Government that has had every position except one that has actually worked. Theyve had failure after failure after failure, crisis of competence, and now they want to blame check for more failures. Weve put up for a very reasonable amendment; they have rejected it. Its for the Government to get their legislation through. Yesterday, they couldnt get the support in the House of Representatives to vote for their bill, and theyve had to defer the debate for another few weeks. So the Government is failing to get its own legislation now on this issue through the Parliament.
BELLING: Senator Wong, considering these current crises were talking about, the asylum seeker issue and the economic crisis both here and overseas, and now youve got this ongoing leadership speculation the Labor Party is in crisis.
WONG: I dont accept that at all. Can I just respond to one thing. Scott wants to talk about the asylum seeker issue, and he wants to talk about the Refugee Convention. Just three months ago, Scott said on television, and Im quoting: It was never our issue as to whether they were a signatory to the Refugee Convention.
MORRISON: Well Im happy to respond to that Penny when
WONG: Three months ago, let me finish Scott, three months ago, he argued a position that is 180 degrees the opposite of the position he just put to you, and that Tony Abbott is putting to the Parliament. And what Id say to Australians is this, we want to resolve this issue. We are prepared to be sensible about this. Weve had a dialogue with the Opposition.
But you see Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison, who are basically propping over to sit with the Greens to knock off the Government amendments. What does that say to you about their conviction around these issues?
MORRISON: If I can respond to that. Our point on the refugee convention is very straightforward, Penny. The High Court as you know said that there has to be a clear objective test about protections that need to be in place to send people offshore. Now previously that was within the Migration Act. The High Court found that that was too ambiguous and theyd set their own test. So if you want to have protections in the Migration Act, then you have to have the Refugee Convention as the test. The Government doesnt want to do that. Their bill will see us back in the courts when they start wanting to send people offshore again. Now we dont want that, we want there to be a clear test, clear protections. Now this Government is desperate and divided on this issue. Penny knows that, she sat in her caucus room this week where we have the Left members once again parade around outside the Parliament saying how they were going to take the Government to task. What has happened in the Parliament this week is the Labor Party going to vote for something that was their worst nightmare for a decade. And that will be on every members conscience.
BELLING: Senator Wong.
WONG: I always think its interesting in these debates that Scott wants to talk so much about the Labor Party and whats inside the Labor Party, and its probably because it is embarrassing for him to have to talk about the fact that Tony Abbotts reversed his position on this.
MORRISON: Not at all Penny
WONG: And hes going to be voting the same way as Bob Brown
MORRISON: I think the desperation and the division is all on your side.
WONG: The same way as Bob Brown.
BELLING: The Labor Party is currently leading the nation though, Senator Wong, and I need to ask the question
WONG: Yes, please.
BELLING: Theres growing speculation about who is Prime Minister. Can you guarantee the Australian public that Julia Gillard will remain Prime Minister up until the next election?
WONG: Julia Gillard is the Prime Minister, and the only people who are pushing this speculation about the Labor Party is the Liberal Party. What we saw, yesterdays reports in the papers about Liberal Party members commenting on Labor Party matters, and somehow that sort of speculation is a story. Frankly this is ridiculous
MORRISON: That doesnt sound like a guarantee to me, Penny.
WONG: You want a guarantee? Ill give it. Absolutely.
MORRISON: OK.
WONG: And you know why? Because this is a woman who is tough, and clear, and absolutely focused on the national interest which puts her in stark contrast, I regret to say, with Tony Abbott.
MORRISON: The Government was saying all those things about Kevin Rudd, too, before their midnight coup against the Prime Minister. The only person, frankly, whos been sent offshore by this Government is Kevin Rudd.
BELLING: Now in regards I guess Senator Wong, the concerning element is this is taking the attention away from whats important for the country, and there needs to be some certainty with the ongoing leadership speculation.
WONG: What Id say to you about that Tarsh is the people who are wanting that attention to be on this issue are people like Scott, people like Tony Abbott.
BELLING: Or some may allege, Mr Rudd.
MORRISON: Kevin Rudds the one making the phone calls, Penny.
WONG: Hang on, but Tarsh, Im very happy to come on this program. Im very happy to talk about the economy. Im very happy to talk about our asylum seeker policy. Im very happy to talk about the fact that we have one of the strongest advanced economies on earth, as is evidenced by the fact that we have Wayne Swan being given the award, the Euromoney award, which is really an award for Australia. It is an award for the hard work of Australians, and its Government in keeping this country out of recession. And those are things which are much more important to the everyday lives of Australians than the sorts of things that Scotts going on about today.
BELLING: That is a very, very valid point.
MORRISON: I dont disagree that the economy and all of these things are very important Tarsh, but the problem is the Government has had a crisis of competence on all of these issues. And the Australian people I think are sick and tired of a Government that simply cant get one thing right.
WONG: Crisis of competence? Hes just been awarded the worlds greatest finance minister. I mean, really.
MORRISON: Im talking about right across the board, Penny. We can go back to pink batts, to school halls
WONG: This is just the sort of negativity we always see.
MORRISON: We can go to the asylum seeker madness thats been created under your own policies. Now, Australians know that this Government has a competence problem, and theyre worried about it. Theyre worried about their future, and they do not feel as confident about their future today as they did four years ago. And I think the Governments incompetence over so many measures has contributed to that. And I think thats one of the reasons why so many Australians do want to see an election, because they do want to see competence and confidence back in the future of the country
WONG: Tarsh, if I could just respond to that, please.
BELLING: Absolutely.
MORRISON: The Government is directionless, divided, and going nowhere.
BELLING: Senator Wong, weve got about two minutes left, Im getting in trouble. (laughs)
WONG: All that was, was a series of very negative words. There was no truth, and there was nothing about the national interest. Thats what that contribution was. So lets think about where we are. As Ive said, whilst Australia is not immune from whats happening on global markets, we are in a much stronger position than almost any other advanced economy, and the reason is, we had a stimulus package that kept us out of recession. That kept 200,000 Australians in jobs.
Now, I dont mind if Scott wants to put forward alternative economic policies, but they dont. All they do is talk down the economy
MORRISON: Thats not true, Penny. Thats just simply not true.
WONG: Talk down the economy, and hide their $70 billion black hole. That is not responsible, at a time particularly when theres so much global economic uncertainty.
BELLING: Penny Wong and Scott Morrison, Im so terribly sorry but we have run out of time, Im in major trouble. Weve gone way over time. Thanks so much for joining us Scott
MORRISON: Thanks Tarsh, thanks Penny.
BELLING: Penny Wong, thank you so much.
WONG: Good to speak with you Tarsh.
ENDS