MICHAEL HOLMES: One imagines a referendum is the ultimate expression of democracy, the peoples voice?

SENATOR PENNY WONG, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IN THE SENATE: We have a system of democracy in Australia where Parliaments make laws and Parliamentarians vote on law. And the view, very strongly, from people in the community has been Parliament should do its job.

The unfortunate reality is that whilst the Leader of the Government - the Prime Minister - the Leader of the Opposition, lots of senior people in both parties support Marriage Equality there is a rump on the Government side who doesnt, and they imposed a plebiscite on the Government as policy. Malcolm Turnbull is on record as not supporting it, but it was imposed on him as one of the prices of becoming Prime Minister.

Well it appears that that deal is not going to gain the support of the Parliament and it appears that the Australian people are very clearly saying to us do your job, youre a Member of Parliament or a Senator, its up to you to vote.

HOLMES: One of the other questions of course is if Parliament does make this decision, theyre the ones that do the voting, will it be a free and open vote, or are parties going to insist that members vote along party lines, rather than by conscience?

WONG: Thats a good question and that really goes to the nub of the issue. Currently, were there a free vote across the Parliament, our laws would remove discrimination. We would have equality in marriage, as we already do in almost every other area of law for Gay and Lesbian Australians.

The only way in which those hard right wingers who oppose an ending of discrimination have been able to hold the position is by binding the Liberal Party to vote en bloc, as one, against it. Now, that is not a tenable position over the long term. The majority of Australians support ending discrimination. The majority of the Parliament supports ending discrimination. Unfortunately you have a group of people who will never countenance ending discrimination, who will never countenance equality and they are imposing their will on the whole of the Liberal Party room, which of itself is proving to be a block. Now, I dont think that is sustainable in the long term.

HOLMES: But that could happen if its along party lines, then this could go nowhere. As you point out, anywhere between 60 and 72 per cent of Australians do want Marriage Equality. If people are saying do your job, if they vote on party lines they are not doing their job because they are not enforcing the will of the people. Why not then a referendum that would put this to bed?

WONG: Id like to remind people that the plebiscite, which is what is proposed, is not only expensive and divisive and weve seen some of the really nasty hate speech that has already begun its also not binding. So, the hard right that Ive been speaking about, even if a plebiscite were to be successful, have already said they wont honour it. So we go through a massive taxpayer-funded opinion poll which is non-binding. It really is quite a ridiculous proposition designed to get around the internals of the Liberal Party.

But can I just take a step back. Ive been in Parliament quite a long time, since 2002, and over this period Ive seen an enormous change in our party, even inside the Liberal Party, but most importantly in the Australian community. When I first came to Parliament this was not an issue on the agenda. The ending of discrimination was, but marriage was not something that the community had really shifted on. And now we have the majority of Australians saying years later look, if two people want to marry each other, so be it. Theres nothing to fear from that. Now, I think that move in the community makes it untenable for that hard right rump to continue to block progress. Eventually, something will have to give and I hope that what we call the moderates inside the Liberal Party, the people who are actually liberals, who understand notions of equality before the law and freedom of choice, I hope over time theyll do the right thing.

HOLMES: If that rump holds firm it may not be the will of the people, heaven forbid. Parliament not doing the will of the people, whod have thought it. Senator Penny Wong, we have to leave it there, thanks so much for your time.

WONG: Good to be with you.