BYNER: Penny Wong, thanks for joining us today. Can you explain to South Australians why its a good thing to take from the tertiary sector and put it in the primary and secondary sector?
WONG: Good morning Leon, good to be with you. Well, first, lets get the facts on the table about what were doing with universities. First, university funding will continue to rise across all universities across the country. Second, weve increased university funding by some 56 per cent since we came to government. So, that is, theyre getting half again on top of what they would have got, what they used to get, under the previous Government.
What we are asking universities to do for two years is to have their funding grow more slowly. And we are doing that because we know we need to find the space in our Budget and its not the only savings measure were proposing we need to find the space in our Budget to resource all our schools, all our children, all our classrooms and teachers, because our current funding system for schools is broken.
BYNER: So, really, you are arguing that this is a good thing to take money out of universities and put it into the primary and secondary areas. Now, you see, Ill give you a good example there are those fees that if you pay upfront you get a discount. Thats going to go. The taxation ability to get a discount is also going to go. Surely its retrograde to make anything harder for someone to get a tertiary level education.
WONG: As the Finance Minister I always have to look at how you best spend money and where you find savings to go to higher priorities. And what Id say to you is: universities will continue to receive an increasing amount of funding from the federal Government. The only thing were doing is saying we want them to grow more slowly.
And, the reason is, if you look at how Australian schools are performing, for example, David Gonskis report that everyones talked about a lot from a couple of years ago, weve got 1 in 12 students not meeting minimum standards. Weve got people from the most disadvantaged backgrounds up to three years behind students from more advantaged backgrounds. If youre serious about lifting the opportunities for all Australians, you have to change how we fund and how we manage our schools.
BYNER: Youve asked for an efficiency dividend of a couple of billion dollars which is going to make it harder for those doing a tertiary course.
WONG: What were saying is youre going to get more funding, but youre not going to get as much as quickly as you might have hoped. Youll continue to get more funding. Were asking you to make a contribution to this massive endeavour, this massive investment, in schools and the reform of our schooling system.
BYNER: Is this something that youve done because even Mr Gonski has not responded favourably to this, who is also part of a tertiary institution. I make the point that, is this something the Governments done, Penny, because it really had nowhere else to go to get the money?
WONG: I think youll find were putting together a Budget in a pretty difficult environment. Just as businesses are finding it tough, so to is less tax being paid to the federal Government. And we have to find space for priorities. And Im a person, and I think many people understand this across the country, that education makes an important difference to your opportunities.
BYNER: Yes, so do you acknowledge, Penny, being a tertiary educated person yourself, do you acknowledge that these moves will make it more difficult for some, in the tertiary sector?
WONG: No, I dont acknowledge
BYNER: No?
WONG: I dont acknowledge that this is a disadvantage for the tertiary sector when you are seeing more places and more funding to universities.
BYNER: Yes, but if youve somebody now who cant get a tax advantage that did, or theres no advantage to them to pay upfront
WONG: Oh, right, this is the upfront payment youre talking about...
BYNER: And also about the fact that there is a tax deductibility that once you would get if you were a uni attender and now you wont get that...
WONG: Well, the tax deduction were capping, rather than allowing people to get a tax deduction without a ceiling. So, we are doing that, at $2000. But Id make the point that most peoples tax deductions for their educational expenses this is self-education are below that.
In terms of the upfront payment, yes, we are removing the discount. People
BYNER: Whats the logic in doing that, because surely if people pay upfront, the moneys there, so the cash flows better. Why would you do that?
WONG: Well, in fact the discount is a loss to the Budget because the taxpayer has to fund the difference between what the person has paid upfront and what the universities receive. So, thats why there is a saving to the Budget. I understand that there is always an argument against every savings measure that you make, and I accept that, but what Id say to you is you have to think about, well, what is the biggest priority.
And I think that the priority that the Australian community do recognise is the importance of giving every child in every school the opportunity to be the best of who they can be. And we wont have that unless we change how we run our schools and how we
BYNER: Well, theyll need more than a SACE to do that. Theyll need either a trade or an apprenticeship or, indeed, a tertiary level education.
WONG: ... which is why weve increased funding and places. And weve got more people at Australian universities than ever before, and more first of families.
BYNER: Well, why do you think it is that most Chancellors you can lay your hands on to say anything are all saying no, Penny, youre wrong.
WONG: And theyre perfectly right to advocate for their university. And what Id say is I agree that university is extraordinarily important, which is why weve given a 56 per cent increase in funding since 2007, and why more students are at university today.
BYNER: And what about the non-Labor states that wont go along with this?
WONG: I think there are times in politics when what I would argue is that things should be above party politics. This is the biggest and most important reform in forty years in our schooling system. It is about opportunity. It is about equity. But its also about having a strong economy in the years ahead.
BYNER: Is it more important to get more students getting a SACE than it is getting them to uni?
WONG: The most important thing, I think, is to deliver our educational standards across the board. It starts at early childhood. It continues through primary and high school. And youre right to say that it starts, it also continues with ensuring that we have top quality universities...
BYNER: Yes, but I need you to answer my specific question though. Is it more important to get more people getting a SACE certificate than it is to get them onto further education?
WONG: I dont know that Id put one as more important than the other. I think that you need to get people
BYNER: The SACE is merely a gateway.
WONG: It
BYNER: And it has to be because of the pressures were now facing as an exporter.
WONG: And lifting the quality of our schools is part of ensuring people dont only get their SACE, or whatever it is nationally, but also, it is important to making sure they can get into university and perform
BYNER: One other question. Youre going to give more funding to schools. Whos going to say how you spend it?
WONG: Well, part of the plan is not only the billions of dollars were putting on the table, as I said $14.5 billion dollars.
BYNER: But who will decide how the extra money is spent?
WONG: What were asking education ministers and the states to do is to sign up to the National Plan for School Improvement, and that goes through a whole range of factors, including empowering school Principals, better information for parents, more individualised support for students...
BYNER: Who will decide how that extra money is spent?
WONG: Well, this is a cooperative arrangement between the State and Federal Governments, and thats the way we want to approach it. What weve got on the table is a two for one offer. Well put in $2 for every $1 of additional funding.
BYNER: Alright, Penny Wong, thanks for joining us.
ENDS