FRAN KELLY: Penny Wong is Labors Leader in the Senate. Senator Wong, good morning, welcome to Breakfast.
SENATOR PENNY WONG, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IN THE SENATE: Good morning Fran, good to be with you.
KELLY: Its widely accepted that reform of the Senate voting laws is essential. Gary Gray has had years of experience in this field, he wanted Labor to negotiate a better bill with the Government, he got rolled. He says the criticism you and others are making is just a dumb view. Why didnt you accept his advice?
WONG: Look, Im not going to personalise this. What I am going to say is the Caucus and the Shadow Cabinet considered this very carefully and came to the position we have come to. Now, lets unpack the argument: first, the current system isnt perfect and I have said, we all have said, that we are prepared to consider change carefully, but when we consider change we shouldnt make sure we create another problem when tackling the issues that do exist in the system and this bill fails to do that. Its cooked up in a backroom deal, its going to be rammed through the Parliament. As you said in your introduction, the largest changes to our voting system in over three decades is going to be smashed through the Parliament with the assistance of the Greens with a half-day hearing. Now this is not a democratic process.
KELLY: You say its cooked up though, but as Richard Di Natale, the Leader of the Greens told us yesterday, there was a full inquiry into this. Lets have a listen:
DI NATALE: This legislation was the subject of a very thorough, very detailed inquiry through the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters. It was given a thorough airing in it and at the time it was the Labor Party, the Greens, Senator Xenophon and the Government who supported removing Group Voting Tickets.
KELLY: So, hardly a half-day inquiry. Its had full going over and Labors original submission supported these changes.
WONG: Richard Di Natale is misleading your listeners. This legislation has never been to that committee until now. What he is talking about is the inquiry post the 2013 election. This legislation-
KELLY: - Which designed much of the shape of these changes.
WONG: The extent to which it differs, we can have an argument about that, but the extent to which this has been rushed is demonstrated by the fact that the Government, after introducing this legislation this week, so thats the first time the Parliament has had an opportunity to have a look at it, has already had to rush through amendments in the lower house to fix up mistakes. They forgot to get the votes counted on the night. That was an amendment that was put through the House of Representatives, pointed out, I think, by an ABC analyst.
Now, youve got to say even if you think, if people think that the view the Labor Party is putting is wrong, how can anybody justify the slapdash and rushed way this is being pushed through? Huge changes to our electoral system for political purposes.
KELLY: But basically arent you voting against this for political purposes, that you believe this will actually assist the Coalition in entrenching itself in the Senate? Now this is in dispute with some of the research that Gary Gray has set down, but the argument that youre mounting here, which is that effectively 3.3 million people would be disenfranchised because their vote would be exhausted. Gary Gray says thats just a dumb view, no one will be disenfranchised, there are better vote saving provisions in the proposed changes than in the current (inaudible).
WONG: Lets understand, first the Labor Party will actually be advantaged by this. So if you want to talk about self-interest, I have no doubt we are likely to get more Senators under this arrangement. So we are not putting our position here from an entirely self-interested position. The second point Id make is this: currently every formal vote, every valid vote for the Senate, 100 per cent of those votes goes towards electing a Senator. Now, you may disagree with how the preference flow is allocated, and as I said I think there is room for changes to address the gaming of the current preference arrangements, but currently every vote goes towards electing a Senator. What this system risks is the 25 per cent of votes, one in four Australians, who voted for someone other than the Greens, the Labor Party or the Coalition, that their vote will not go towards electing anybody. Now, I dont think having 75 per cent of the votes electing 100 per cent of the Senate is a reasonable system.
KELLY: Youre listening to RN Breakfast. Our guest is Senator Penny Wong, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate and Shadow Minister for Trade and Investment. Senator, a fair few things to get to, because I want to get to the White Paper on Defence with you too, as a South Australian. But the tax debate is on again in earnest, reports this morning that the Turnbull Government is moving away from major changes to the tax system. It will limit reform to cracking down on excessive benefits from negative gearing and reduce how much high income earners can contribute to their super. Itll still raise enough for some modest income tax cuts. Is this going to leave Labor high and dry and leave the Government clear to make a major scare campaign against your quite significant changes to negative gearing, proposed changes?
WONG: Its been very interesting, hasnt it, to watch the Prime Minister go from the nice Mr Turnbull, who was prepared to treat the Australian people as intelligent people, prepared to have a discussion with them about tax reform, floating a whole range of different ideas, its been interesting to see him try and morph into Tony Abbott and run a scare campaign. Except, of course, theyre not doing it very effectively, because they cant even get their scare campaign right. They cant even tell Australians whether they think our changes will make house prices go up or go down.
KELLY: Labor will make you poorer is their slogan. Are you worried about that?
WONG: I am up, as the Labor Party is up, for an honest discussion with Australians about the changes we need to make to strengthen the budget and ensure we can fund schools and hospitals and other productivity enhancing investments into the future. And I think it is very disappointing that Mr Turnbull, who I know is an intelligent man, who I know understands the challenges the country faces, is now in a position where the best he can do is to run a scare campaign. And I suspect many people who supported him becoming the Prime Minister are equally disappointed.
KELLY: Are you disappointed too that one of your own Labor colleagues, this is on another issue now, Senator Joe Bullock, has criticised the Safer Schools program? This is the program in schools, we were discussing it on the program yesterday, teaching kids about sexual orientation and prejudice and bullying. Joe Bullock, a Labor Senator, agrees with some in the Coalition that this should be suspended because it is unbalanced and too narrowly focused on homosexual issues.
WONG: I dont agree with Joe and the Labor Party doesnt agree with Joe on this. This is a Labor program, we funded it in government. It is a program that is designed to address the terrifying statistics of self-harm, of abuse, of discrimination and of bullying of same-sex attracted and transgender young kids. Now whatever your views, whatever your particular views about issues such as marriage equality and so forth, surely no one in this country thinks that it is appropriate for children to continue to be bullied. This is a program that is about lessening that.
KELLY: So now it is being reviewed, in a sense do you welcome that to take some of the heat out of this? Could that be the way to take some of the heat out of this and the criticism from it?
WONG: Well the way to take the heat out of this is for Malcolm Turnbull to stop placating the hard right in the party and to stand up for the values he believes in. I mean what is so disappointing is that on this issue, on climate change, on marriage equality this is a man who we know has much more moderate and tolerant views who is refusing to stand up to those in his party who will never agree with teachings of acceptance and tolerance when it comes to sexuality.
KELLY: Bill Shorten blasted Senator Cory Bernardi yesterday, they met in passing and exchanged words, he called him a homophobe. Is it automatically homophobic if you express concern about this program?
WONG: I think any fair reading of what Cory has said over the years would suggest that he has views about sexuality which are not shared by the majority of the Australian people.
KELLY: So you think Senator Bernardi is a homophobe?
WONG: I invite your listeners to consider what he has said over the years.
KELLY: Senator Wong just one final question on another issue. You are the Shadow Minister for Trade and Investment, do you welcome the fact that in the Defence White Paper today it is estimated that there is going to be about $195 billion outlined for spending on new warships, aircraft, armoured vehicles, other military equipment and the Prime Minister is saying that basically every defence dollar must be spent within Australia where possible, its going to encourage innovation and enterprise. A lot of that will be in South Australia, we know the submarines will, part of it, be built in South Australia. Do you welcome this focus from the Prime Minister?
WONG: I will look forward to the White Paper being released and I think all South Australians and all Australians would look forward to the Prime Minister matching his words with action. What has been apparent though, whether it is Mr Abbott or Mr Turnbull, is that the fanfare surrounding announcements whether it is on submarines or the Offshore Patrol Vessels has not been matched by what is then uncovered in estimates where it was clear that despite the fact people said they would be built in South Australia, that wasnt a condition. And of course we saw in relation to the submarines that the promise was broken by the former Defence Minister. Now if Mr Turnbull is going to honour the promise made to Australians and South Australians about where the build of the submarines would be, of course we would welcome that.
KELLY: Senator Penny Wong thank you very much for joining us.
WONG: Good to speak with you.