KELLY: Senator Wong, good morning, welcome to Breakfast.
WONG: Good morning Fran, good to be back.
KELLY: Now, Tony Abbott as new Prime Minister says, the adults are back in charge of the country, and hes promising the new parliament will be respectful and it will discuss the issues rather than abused individuals. Is that the tone and style that Labor also wants to see in the parliament, especially given the last three years?
WONG: Well if they say theyre the adults, Ill tell you what, theyre treating all of us like children. Because theyre refusing to tell Australians what theyre really doing. I mean, we have a Prime Minister recording an ad effectively, a stunt, that you just played an excerpt from, but refusing to engage in telling Australians some of the things that hes actually doing. For example, they said theyd turn back the boats but theyre not doing that. They said that theyd reduce debt and deficit but theyre actually going to blow out the deficit and increase the nations credit card limit. This isnt the Government they said theyd be. But more importantly, theyre not a government that tells Australians what theyre really doing.
KELLY: Well I guess that sounds like your message to the public to begin to kick off this 44^th Parliament, which goes to my next question about the style of Labor in opposition. Opposition leader Bill Shorten says he wont be modelling himself on what he calls Tony Abbotts aggression and negativity. How forceful are you going to be in those messages? How are you going to kick that point home?
WONG: Well, we will be very strongly and forcefully holding this Government to account. And the institution of parliament is one which enables governments to be required to give answers and to have questions asked of them, something that it appears this Government doesnt want. Bill is a much more constructive individual than Tony Abbott will ever be and I think hes absolutely right to say hes not going to be the sort of negative Opposition leader that we saw from Tony Abbott for so long and which it appears, from that clip that you played, hes continuing in Government.
KELLY: Not so negative, but what about oppositionist? Hows Labor going to treat these bills when they come out? How supportive will you be of some and how judicious will you be when judging what to support and what to oppose?
WONG: You have to look to the national interest and you also have to make sure that you reflect Labor values in how you approach legislation. Its not our job to get legislation from this Government passed, its our job to be an effective opposition and to consider the national interest when bills come forward, and certainly thats the approach well be taking.
KELLY: Look, in terms of the national interest, Labor has announced it will oppose the repeal of a carbon tax. The decisions already been made by the Labor caucus. But the Government is very likely to get its way when the new senate is installed in July given the soundings of those elected Senators, so then that issue will be taken out of your hands. So youll oppose now, really in the knowledge that the carbon tax will go eventually and direct action will be the policy. Is that how you see this?
WONG: Well, as Senate Leader for the Labor party, my job is to work with my colleagues, my Labor senate colleagues, and obviously to negotiate with the cross benchers. But ultimately people will have to make their decisions based on what they think is important. Can I say one of the things I think is really important, and that is that Tony Abbott shouldnt be given this legislation sight unseen. The reality is this is legislation thats about his direct action policy. Thats his alternative, thats what he told Australians hed be doing, and yet the Government still has really not gone beyond that being a slogan. Its time direct action the Tony Abbotts signature policy was properly considered. The Government needs to put out details of it and explain to Australians how it isnt simply a blank cheque to Australias polluters.
KELLY: How does it feel to you to be, again, preparing to sit in the senate to discuss a carbon bill? And I wonder, if I can invite you to look in the rear mirror for a moment, to look back at that senate vote in 2009, the senate vote when the CPRS, the first version of the emissions trading scheme was voted down, just, really, when you were the Minister for Climate Change. It must feel like a world away from that moment.
WONG: Well I think that was a moment in which we walked away, as a nation, from a sensible, adult, and bi-partisan approach to climate change. You might recall we actually got Malcolm Turnbull on board for that legislation and that led to Tony Abbott and the hard right of the Liberal party taking him down. And I think thats been a real retrograde step for Australia. This is a policy that has to be dealt with.
Climate change isnt going to go away, no matter which Prime Minister, no matter with party has the numbers in the senate. It is a reality. And if you think you have to deal with it then the question has always been how are you going to deal with it? We say we shouldnt have a situation where we have unlimited pollution in this country. Thats why we want a limit on pollution through an emissions trading scheme.
KELLY: Given all that work you did way back then though, does that moment remain stuck in your mind about an opportunity missed? Do you wish that you had more influence, perhaps on your Prime Minister at the time, Kevin Rudd, to get him negotiating?
WONG: I think the opportunity missed was when the Greens voted with Tony Abbott to vote down a limit on pollution and the carbon pollution reduction scheme. I think that was an opportunity missed for the Australian Senate and for the country.
KELLY: Penny Wong, on asylum boats, you mentioned them briefly. The Abbott Government, we now know, failed to convince Indonesia over the weekend to take back some asylum seekers that were intercepted off Java. They were, in the end, taken to Christmas Island, though the Prime Minister is adamant that Australia will win the test of wills with people smugglers. It does seem to be working, the boats have undeniably slowed despite this rejection from Jakarta over the weekend.
WONG: Well the boats slowed after the former Labor government put in place its arrangement with Papua New Guinea. Lets be clear. But I think whats really telling about the recent revelations about asylum seekers is this: Australians are being told to rely on the Indonesian press, the Jakarta Post, for information about what their Government is doing, that is what is happening. Australians are looking to the Jakarta Post to get information about what their Government is doing. I think that is absurd and this says something very telling about this Prime Minister and this Government. They are a Government that does not want to tell Australians what theyre doing.
KELLY: So what are you going to do about that, because the Greens will be moving a motion this week to compel the Government to release this information regarding boat turn-arounds and interceptions, will Labor support that?
WONG: Well, well certainly be looking at all the tools of accountability that the senate and the parliament have, and we certainly will be considering not only that motion but what else can be done. But what I say is this: we shouldnt have to do this. This is the elected Government they told people they would turn back the boats. Thats not what theyre doing, and we know from the Indonesian press that boats have been refused. They should be upfront with Australians about what is occurring.
KELLY: A couple of quick questions. Over the weekend, the Government announced new guidelines for the payment of politicians travel, expenses travel claims. Opposition leader Bill Shorten says hes not sure theyll work. Whats your view? Do you think they go far enough? Will they stop MPs claiming taxpayer funds that they may not be entitled to?
WONG: Well I think Bills right. Im not sure they will work because they dont seem to go to the issue, which is that weve seen some poor judgements, unfortunately, particularly by a substantial portion of Tony Abbotts cabinet, who appear to think that weddings and football matches are appropriate uses of entitlement. I think the point that all politicians have to think through is can you justify this to the people who elect you and can you justify this on the front page of your local newspaper.
KELLY: Well should the Opposition be calling for tougher changes there? I mean if they dont do enough to go to those poor judgements it has to be said that both sides have been caught out for exhibiting poor judgement that these should be tougher still, these guidelines?
WONG: Well look, well certainly look at the detail of whats been put forward. And weve said
KELLY: Well theres not that much to look at, Im sure the Oppositions had a chance to see it.
WONG: [laughs] Well, well look at the detail of whats proposed. What weve said is were in the cart for a sensible approach, a bipartisan approach to these issues. And, lets recall, were not the Government. Its the Government that makes decisions about the rules associated with entitlements.
KELLY: Yes but an Opposition can be constructive.
WONG: We are being constructive, were prepared to look at arrangements which might improve the way in which MPs use entitlements. But ultimately, as I said to you, I think there is an issue of judgement here, and I think some of the judgements which are being made are poor and they dont reflect well, unfortunately, on any of us. Because when one politician does the wrong thing, you and your colleagues, quite rightly, and the people who put us here I think it reflects badly on all of us.
KELLY: Just finally, one of the toughest decisions facing the new Government is for the Treasurer and that is the proposed takeover of GrainCorp. Labor supports the sale of the grain handler to the US-based ADM. Youre the Shadow Minister for Trade and Investment. Why are you convinced this is in the national interest?
WONG: Well, I havent seen anything thats been put before me that suggests that this is a deal that should be rejected outright. And I made the point in a speech I gave last Sunday, that foreign investment, particularly in terms of scaling up our national production, is in the national interest. You always have to look at the detail of deals and, obviously, were not the Government. We dont know the detail of whats before the Treasurer.
But the point I make, and I make again today, is that this is not a deal that should be considered through the prism of internal Coalition politics. Its not a deal where you should see the Nationals leader and Deputy Prime Minister pre-empting, publicly, the Treasurers decision. And its not a deal that should be resolved by considering Barnaby Joyce spitting the dummy and threatening to walk off the front bench. I mean, this is not an adult way, to use Prime Minister Abbotts term, its not an adult way to approach a national interest decision. The Treasurer should make his decision on the national interest. And my concern is what we might do as a political way through is approve a deal with so many conditions it actually falls over, which would be nothing more than a political play.
KELLY: Would the deal approved with some conditions be appropriate?
WONG: Look, I think its always open to governments to approve with conditions. Labor did that. You need to look at the national interest. If you think it does require some conditions, thats a reasonable proposition. Whats not reasonable is the dummy spit weve seen from the Nationals ahead of this decision.
KELLY: Penny Wong, thank you very much for joining us.
WONG: Good to be with you.