SUBJECTS: Labor’s approach to foreign policy; Russia’s war on Ukraine; Australia’s relationship with China; Australia’s diplomatic capability; defence spending.
KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Joining me live from Adelaide is the Shadow Foreign Minister, Penny Wong. Thanks for your time, as always, Penny Wong. If Labor wins the election in two months from now, what if anything will be different in terms of Australia's worldview and our foreign policy?
SENATOR PENNY WONG, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: I think there are many things which would be very similar. We have the same views on the risk, the risks the world presents. We have the same views on the importance of being clear in our relationship with China about our interests and our values. I think what would change, though, is there would be a lot less domestic politics associated with foreign policy and national security. I think one of the great failings of Mr Morrison has been that he has sought to play domestic politics with national security. And as Anthony made clear at the Lowy Institute today we see national security as being above politics. That's why we've given bipartisan support to the AUKUS Agreement. That's why we have walked with the Government, in the steps it's taken to strengthen Australia's resilience and to improve the funding of our Defence forces. But unfortunately, we know that Mr Morrison doesn't like people agreeing with him.
GILBERT: The criticism of China as neglecting its responsibility as a permanent member of the UN Security Council - that was a forceful, I guess criticism and critique by your leader Anthony Albanese. I wonder what's your view, though, when you look at the loss of face for Putin, and for Russia, in this conflict right now, is there a view that China might ease up, might pull back from its regional aggression?
WONG: That's a very insightful question, Kieran. Because I actually think it goes to a very important point, which is China, as Anthony spoke about, it put out a statement, a no limits partnership statement, declaration, between Xi Jinping and Mr Putin and then a few weeks later, Russia engaged in an illegal and immoral war, which has rained down on civilians. And I think that is a loss of face for China. It's also inconsistent not only as Anthony said, with China's position as a permanent member of the Security Council, but with the existing precepts of Chinese foreign policy, which are supposedly to respect sovereignty and territorial integrity. I did see Foreign Minister Wang Yi, earlier this week, issue a statement which included, amongst other things, an indication that China might be willing to mediate. If that is the case, if China is willing to use its relationship with Russia to stop the bloodshed we are seeing, that would be a step forward, and we would encourage that, as the European Union is. But I do think that China's position of support for Mr Putin's actions, is inconsistent with its place in the world and inconsistent with its own foreign policy position. I think that's becoming increasingly clear to the global community.
GILBERT: Marise Payne met with the new Chinese Ambassador yesterday, we see reports today via the SMH. That is a step forward. Do you welcome that? Is it the start potentially of a thaw?
WONG: I think it is a good thing that the Ambassador has sought a meeting with the Foreign Minister. Regardless of difference, engagement is important. Neither country is going away. So it's important, where we can, to engage - but engage very clearly on the terms that Australia expects, which is that our national interests are respected. I was aware that Marise Payne was meeting with the Ambassador. He's also sought meetings with the Opposition, and we will ensure we engage with Marise and her office so that there are very clear, consistent and bipartisan messages from both parties of government about what we regard as important from Australia's perspective.
GILBERT: Anthony Albanese was asked by Michael Fullilove at the Lowy Institute would Labor grow the nation's diplomatic footprint, the number of our representatives overseas and the Department of Foreign Affairs. What's your thinking on that? Is that something you're committed to?
WONG: As the Shadow Foreign Minister, I always want more resources for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the diplomatic network and for development assistance. I mean that's my job. Obviously, we have to be fiscally sensible, and we will be responsible in how we looked at this. But there is no question both of those need rebuilding. I think as important as resources is leadership, and clarity of leadership. I think that the Department of Foreign Affairs should play a much greater role in setting Australia's foreign policy. Yet we've seen regrettably, under Mr Morrison, too much of foreign policy being developed through the Prime Minister's Office and the Prime Minister's media unit. That is not good for the country, and I certainly make it very clear if we win, that I intend to ensure that me as Foreign Minister, and the Department of Foreign Affairs, plays its important role in bringing together the various aspects of Australian statecraft into a coherent, clear foreign policy.
GILBERT: The top Ukrainian diplomat in Australia has called for the Russian Ambassador to be expelled. Given the apparent war crimes we're seeing inflicted on the Ukrainian people you can understand his view. What's your assessment of it? Is it in our national interest to expel that representative?
WONG: That goes to the issue of what we have seen in this illegal and immoral war that Russia and Mr Putin are engaging in. And I want to make very clear again, that the bombing of a maternity hospital, the bombing of women and children is an appalling and horrific act for which Russia shouldn't be rightly condemned, and frankly should be deeply ashamed. I can completely understand the Ukrainian Charge's position. What I've said previously is Marise Payne, as Foreign Minister, has to make a judgement about whether we send a message by expelling Russian diplomats or whether we need to ensure we have lines of communication here in Australia and also in Russia - with Australian diplomats stationed there - to press our views very clearly, to the Russian Government. Now, that's a judgment - obviously it's a judgment that has to be weighed upon by these recent horrific events - and a judgment the Foreign Minister of the day really has to make.
GILBERT: Now on the Defence spending, it's clear the Prime Minister wants a khaki election. He's saying that Labor has been weak on it. In your most recent term, that Defence spending slumped to 1.56% of GDP. Is it a vulnerability, the recent record, or at least the most recent record of Labor Government in office?
WONG: Well, I'd make a couple of points. First, I think the people of Lismore, much of northern New South Wales and Queensland, might have a look at the Prime Minister going up and playing politics on Defence with a pretty unfortunate eye, given how many of them need help. I think Australians would be much more respectful of the Prime Minister if he actually focused on providing assistance and help to so many Australians who need it. On the issue of Defence spending: Defence spending reflects the strategic circumstances. And that's why, if you look at the period I was a member of the Cabinet, the Rudd-Gillard Governments, and the Howard Government, Defence spending as a proportion of GDP was on average, very similar. It was about 1.7% of GDP. Those strategic circumstances have changed. And Anthony Albanese has made clear, we would take a very clear approach to Defence spending. We recognise that it would have to be in excess of 2% of GDP and we've supported Defence spending to date. But I'd make a final point, Kieran. You don't get credit for spending money on projects that blow out and don't deliver. And the reality is, this Government has delivered capability gaps, blowouts, and a major capability gap in terms of our submarines and they haven't got an answer to that. So, Mr Morrison can talk all he likes, the reality is we should be judged on what we actually deliver for the country.
GILBERT: Shadow Foreign Minister Penny Wong, appreciate your time as always.
WONG: Thank you. Great to be with you. Thank you.
Authorised by Paul Erickson, ALP, Canberra.
