GILBERT: Let me introduce our guests this morning on AM Agenda, the Finance Minister Penny Wong and the shadow health minister Peter Dutton. Good morning to you both.
WONG: Good morning.
DUTTON: Good morning.
GILBERT: A very sad way to start the program this morning another Australian soldier killed as weve been advised. Defence yet to confirm that, Minister. But as I say, the news conference held shortly.
WONG: Well look our thoughts and prayers are always with those serving overseas. And we have seen unfortunately many families who have had bad news over the years. I cant comment on this until Stephen and the Chief of the Defence Force obviously make their announcement for privacy reasons. Obviously thats the way we need to deal with this.
GILBERT: Indeed. Shadow minister Dutton, your reaction? Obviously, you know, when the Minister stands up, its something serious. This is again sad news out of Afghanistan.
DUTTON: Well it is, we can only go by these initial reports but as Penny rightly says, our thoughts and prayers are with not just the immediate family but the extended family in the ADF. They always feel this terribly, a loss of one of their own. And we have to make sure that at this time, and there always is bipartisan support for whatever assistance can be pledged to that family and to the unit that that soldier came from.
GILBERT: Absolutely. Well lets look at some of the other issues of the day as we await that news conference with Mr Smith and the CDF.
On climate change, the forum continues today, the Climate Change Commission holding a forum here in Canberra. But Minister, yesterday, it did appear that the Commission seemed to endorse at least in part, some of the Coalitions direct action plan. It said that it cant be that on its own but it did say that it had some merits, didnt it?
WONG: I think thats a very optimistic reading of that part of the report. I did take the opportunity in Estimates last night to read as much as possible of that report. It says a number of things. It says, first, the science is clear: the climate is changing. It says that were already noticing the effects of that. It talks about the number of record hot days in the last half century having doubled. And it says this is the critical decade to act. And we all know that to act effectively, you have to put a price on carbon. Malcolm Turnbull has confirmed that again.
The direct action plan doesnt work and costs a lot. And it involves billions of dollars being taken from taxpayers without compensation, without assistance and being given to polluters hoping that that might have an effect. What the Commission said is that some of these sequestration issues might assist, but theyre not enough. Thats consistent with what Malcolm Turnbull has said and consistent with what economists say. Really Tony Abbotts plan is not a plan.
GILBERT: Peter Dutton, on this forum that continues the Commission holding a roundtable with MPs today to provide briefings the Opposition Leader says that theres bipartisan support on the science. And yet it doesnt appear that all of your party, the Coalition, is convinced. We saw Barnaby Joyce yesterday mocking the Commission and Nick Minchin calls it climate alarmism. Are you alarmed that some of your colleagues dont believe in the science?
DUTTON: Well Kieran, I want to address some of what Penny had to say. I think it was probably the most selective analysis of the report that came out yesterday. It was significant for the Coalition in that it did endorse that direct action plan that we took to the last election. It does say that that needs to be a significant part of whats the solution going forward.
Now, I think also what people can read from the report is that Australia acting alone without anything from the United States, without anything from China or from India, I think thats why theres scepticism, particularly in the community at the moment. Because people are saying, well why would you export jobs? Why would the Labor Greens coalition entertain this idea of stopping coal mines or closing it down? A $50 billion a year industry, 100,000 jobs.
WONG: This is just scaremongering and its just not correct.
DUTTON: This is what your partners want to do, Penny.
WONG: Well thats the Greens policy. The Governments policy has never been to end the coal industry.
DUTTON: Youre in partnership with the Greens.
WONG: You ought not say that. I mean, this really demonstrates the way in which the Coalition cannot deal with this issue other than by scaremongering.
DUTTON: Im just reporting those statements.
WONG: The reality is that is just scare mongering. And I think, you know, are you going to answer the question that was put to you? You have colleagues who say this is alarmist. You have colleagues who simply deny the science. I mean, Senator Minchin who installed your leader asserts that climate change is some sort of left wing conspiracy to de-industrialise the Western world. These are the sorts of views that your Party is full of.
DUTTON: Penny, if you talk to people like Martin Ferguson or Simon Crean and others in their most private moments, as I understand it, there are some sceptics within your own ranks. Theyre obviously able to quieten down because they have a lot of pressure on them. But the fact is
WONG: Is that the best you can do Peter?
DUTTON: Thats the reality.
WONG: Is that the best you can do?
DUTTON: The problem the Governments got at the moment, Penny, and why there is such a big disconnect between the public and the Government is that you are not listening to the Australian public. You are telling people that they are idiots. You are telling people that they dont have
WONG: Im not saying theyre idiots. No ones saying that. Why are you saying that?
DUTTON: Youre telling people in our democracy that they dont have the ability to believe what they want to believe.
WONG: Who is saying that? Who is saying that?
DUTTON: You are.
WONG: You just assert these things, Peter.
DUTTON: You are completely dismissive of people within the community.
WONG: You just assert these things without any basis
DUTTON: I think thats part of the Governments problem. I just want to make this point, Kieran. The fact is that our plan accepts climate change.
WONG: It doesnt work.
DUTTON: Our plan meets the same target that yours does
WONG: It doesnt.
DUTTON: - in terms of reducing emissions by 2020.
GILBERT: OK theres obviously disagreement there. You say it works but Senator Wong says it wont.
WONG: $30 billion is what it would cost. Thats what taxpayers would have to pay.
GILBERT: Let me ask you though about something which the Commission has found and suggested yesterday that, for example, the Great Barrier Reef it cannot be saved without international action; that there needs to be concerted international action. Thats something you need to convince people of, isnt it? That were not going out there on our own?
WONG: Climate change is a global problem. Everyone has always acknowledged that. The Government has always acknowledged that. And Peter just yet again, pointed to other countries, but not only not acknowledging that they are acting, but more importantly saying thats a justification for us not to act. I mean thats not the Australian way. We dont sit back and say, were just going to let everybody else deal with this problem that will affect us and were not going to get our hands dirty. Were not going to try and help as well.
I mean, this is a global problem. Its not going to be stopped by one country alone. But its not going to be stopped if every country says, its not our problem. And thats their position.
GILBERT: OK before we move on, just quickly, Peter Dutton, on that, your conservative colleagues in the United Kingdom last week announced a very ambitious reduction. There are efforts in New Zealand. There are efforts across Europe, in China. There are also steps forward. Australia wont be leading the way on this.
DUTTON: Well lets look at a couple of facts, Kieran. In the United Kingdom theyre talking about a plan in 2025 first point. The second point is that theyre largely reliant on nuclear energy. Were not. If you look at the Canadians who have just gone to an election and an overwhelming majority of the conservative government there has been returned. Their policy was not to go ahead with a similar great big new tax that Labors proposing here.
In New Zealand, their ETS is being wound back. President Obama is as far away from a plan on this stuff as he has ever been. There is no plan for China. There is no plan for India. And Penny is right in saying that we should be a responsible corporate citizen. But with a population of 22 million people with a fraction of a percentage of world emissions we shouldnt be out there ahead of the world either.
WONG: And were not.
GILBERT: OK lets move on to a couple of issues - asylum seekers. The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has said last night if Australia is serious about sending 800 people out to Malaysia then I think it violates refugee law. It cannot send individuals to a country that has not ratified the torture convention, convention on refugees.
WONG: Well look, I saw those comments. Ive seen other comments by people in the UNHCR as well recognising that we do need a regional approach to this. We do need to resolve this issue and that Australia by doing this is resolving one of the problems which is the large, you know, weve got a bank up in Malaysia. We have to break the people smuggling model. This is what our approach does.
GILBERT: Peter Dutton, there have been mixed reports out of the UNHCR, some suggesting that it is a step forward. The Commissioner, the Human Rights Commissioner, suggesting that it obviously isnt from the quote that I just read.
DUTTON: Look, I think its clear, Kieran, that the Government is in a complete muddle at the moment when it comes to their immigration policy and I think Australians recognise that. I see reports today that it may be that we dont have to send the 800 people to Malaysia to get the 4000 into our country. It may be that we are obliged to accept 4000 without 800 going the other way. That would be a remarkable deal.
WONG: It would mean the people smuggling model has been broken.
DUTTON: That would probably be the most stupid deal that the Prime Minister has come up with yet and thats a fair statement because this is a government that has presided over a mess not just in immigration but in health, in economics, in taxation.
WONG: Can I just make this point -
GILBERT: Yeah sure.
WONG: If the 800 havent come, it means the people smuggling model has been broken. So I mean, thats the
DUTTON: Malaysia doesnt have to take one for us to be obliged to accept the 4000
WONG: Let me finish. The lack of logic in your position is, oh this is really bad because if the 800 dont come, we still have to take these additional 4000.
DUTTON: Im not saying that, Im not saying that. All Im saying is that
WONG: If we dont have 800 refugees, asylum seekers, landing in Australia for return to Malaysia then clearly the model has worked because the people smuggling business case has been broken.
GILBERT: Thats a fair point, isnt it? You know, if there arent 800 to send, that means that the numbers havent arrived here.
DUTTON: Thats not as I understand the report. As I understand the report, theres no obligation for Malaysia, even if 800 people plus come to our country on the boats, there is still no obligation for Malaysia to accept those, but the onus on us will be to accept the 4000. And the five for one swap is just the latest iteration, I think, in a complete policy disaster by a government who clearly has lost control of our borders.
GILBERT: Lets move on to the issue of plain packaging for tobacco. It looks like theres a backbench revolt within the Coalition ranks. Alex Somlyay, Ken Wyatt and Mal Washer are apparently going to advise the partyroom today that they will cross the floor. Whats your view as the shadow health minister? Should there be plain packaging or not?
DUTTON: Well Kieran, were happy to have a look at the Government legislation. Now just to put this into perspective, the Government doesnt plan to introduce this legislation until the winter sitting, so as far as sort of August it may be before this legislation comes before the Parliament.
At the moment theres an exposure draft. They have that open for comment until I think the first week in June. It doesnt have a start date until, an effective start date, until July of 2012. What weve asked from the Government to do is produce the evidence, to show us that this is the best way forward.
GILBERT: The Nationals havent though. The Nationals say that they wont back it. Theyre opposed to it from the get-go.
DUTTON: Well when we were in government, Kieran, and Tony Abbott was the Health Minister, we introduced the health warnings, the graphic health warnings that you get on cigarette packets now. When I was the shadow health minister only a couple of years ago we proposed the increase in the excise.
GILBERT: What about this? This is another step and the Nationals have said, Barnaby Joyce this morning said he was making it very clear that they dont back this plan. So one way or the other, youre going to have division within your party over this.
DUTTON: Kieran, we will negotiate with people within our own ranks and were talking, obviously, to people in the community, retailers who are quite upset about what the governments proposing. Dont forget, this is the government that presided over FuelWatch and GroceryWatch. This has been trotted out on four occasions, generally at a time when there is a bad poll for the Prime Minister, or theres discussion about Kevin Rudd embarrassing Julia Gillard again. This is not a government thats able to produce the evidence. We will back measures which will effectively reduce smoking rates, but theres no evidence on the table at the moment, and what
WONG: Well, hang on
GILBERT: Well, well come to the Minister to respond to that.
WONG: Thank you. Perhaps the evidence might be how much the tobacco companies are opposing it.
DUTTON: (inaudible) warnings
WONG: I heard you out, I heard you out on this issue, Peter. Its clear that you dont have a position. Barnaby Joyce said on radio this morning that they were opposing it. As a shadow health minister, really its incumbent upon you to do the right thing in the party room.
What is clear here is that Tony Abbott is caught between doing the right thing, which everybody knows is to go down the plain packaging path, to reduce the capacity of big tobacco to market. But hes caught between that, doing the right thing, and the many donations you are still accepting from big tobacco.
DUTTON: Well, hang on. Thats nonsense, thats nonsense.
WONG: Thats true. Its not nonsense, you are.
DUTTON: No, no, just
WONG: Let me finish, and people in your own party, who think that this is some sort of property thing. Thats the way in which Barnaby described it this morning, this is intellectual property rights. I mean youre the shadow health minister, are you going to do the right thing?
GILBERT: But the Coalitions still receiving donations - thats a fact - from these companies. But its not nonsense, is it.
DUTTON: Kieran, its nonsense that were affected by those donations. I mean, I find it completely offensive to suggest
WONG: Well maybe you should get rid of them.
DUTTON: I heard you out, now hear me out. To suggest that somehow our view is persuaded by that. I mean, they are a legal company, they make donations to political parties, as many other companies and individuals do, both to the Labor Party, and to the Liberal Party.
WONG: Well, we dont take (inaudible) -
DUTTON: Look at the record at the time that these companies were making donations. We decreased the smoking rate, the biggest fall in our countrys history when Tony Abbott was health minister. We introduced graphic health warnings, which the industry opposed. I proposed, along with our leader at the time, an increase of $2 billion in the excise because pricing, we know, works when it comes to cigarettes. Children and adults are not addicted to branding on cigarettes, they are addicted to nicotine.
GILBERT: Why are you sceptical about the packaging, though? Why do you think that thats not going to make an impact?
DUTTON: I just dont have the evidence one way or the other, Kieran. Ive asked the Government to produce the evidence. Weve said weve got an open mind. Now, Penny says we should declare our position now. I havent seen the legislation. Theres a draft exposure out.
WONG: Its been out for some time.
DUTTON: Theres a draft exposure out but there is no
WONG: Tell me youve read it.
DUTTON: I have read it, but there is no final Bill before the House. And the Government obviously, if theyre in their negotiating
WONG: Whats your view on the draft?
DUTTON: Well, if the Government is sincere in asking for opinions, which is why theyve got an exposure draft out, presumably the final draft will not be whats in its current form.
WONG: Well, Peter, we look forward to receiving your response, if youre interested in making a response. At the moment we have a completely different position amongst members of the Opposition.
DUTTON: We would just like to see the evidence.
WONG: And you are the shadow health minister. DUTTON: We would like to see the evidence that the Government is relying on. I mean, why not an increase in excise? Why not some other measure?
WONG: Is that Coalition policy?
DUTTON: Why not another measure in relation to packaging, or if theyre clearly for prohibition, then announce that? I mean, this is the phoniness
GILBERT: Can you win the Nationals, though, regardless. When you get the advice, can you win the Nationals who clearly have said they dont want to support this initiative.
DUTTON: Kieran, we will see the legislation in its final form. I will take that to the Coalition partyroom. We will have a discussion in shadow cabinet. That is the normal process with any bill. Just bear in mind that this is being trotted out for the fourth time because the Government is on the rocks. Nothing to do with the health debate, its all to do with a red herring to distract from asylum seekers, from carbon tax, from mining tax -
WONG: Thats just not true. This has been our policy for a long time. Nicola has been working on it. Thats just a line to try and get you out of the shemozzle youre in as shadow health minister when youve got your leader prevaricating and Barnaby Joyce saying no. And you know its the right thing.
DUTTON: Penny, what you dont want to be talking about is carbon tax.
WONG: We spoke about climate change first up.
DUTTON: You dont want to be talking about this huge tax on families and business. You dont want to be talking about it, this is the problem.
WONG: Im happy to talk about climate change.
GILBERT: Peter, the Coalition has been successful in keeping the focus on the Government, and obviously politically doing very well in the opinion polls. Are you worried that some of the moves like this from these backbenchers floating their ideas in the paper, and the comments from Malcolm Turnbull last week, that people are maybe showing a little bit of hubris. One former Coalition staffer in The Australian today is saying that thats the big risk for the Coalition; that you might show some hubris being well in front in the polls.
DUTTON: Kieran, I think weve been successful over the last couple of years because we have supported good policy and weve opposed bad policy. And we want to make a decision about whether this is good policy or bad, and we will go forward on that basis. It is no different to the decision we took in relation to the carbon tax. We believe thats bad for the economy, and its bad for business. This is a government thats in coalition with the Greens. They want to close the mining industry down, we think thats bad policy.
WONG: Thats not true. You see youre lying again. You should stop lying Peter. You really should
DUTTON: Well, Penny, that is the Deputy Leader of the Greens stated position.
WONG: And that is not the Governments position.
DUTTON: And this is your partner in government.
WONG: That is not the Governments position, and twice in this interview now you have simply again repeated something which is untrue. Now if you cant win the debate by actually addressing the facts, clearly youve just decided well just lie.
DUTTON: Penny, I think what we should be talking about is whether or not you support a $60 or $100 a tonne carbon price
WONG: We will put out the carbon price.
DUTTON: - or will it be an ineffective price which effectively will just put a huge tax with no economic or environmental benefit.
WONG: We will put out the details, and we can have a discussion then.
DUTTON: I mean, thats pretty much where youre headed, isnt it?
GILBERT: Well, listen, were going to take a quick break, thank you both very much for being with us. Im going to, because were waiting, our viewers can see on the screen there the pictures of the Russell Defence Headquarters. Were going to take you there very soon live for this news conference with the Chief of the Defence Force. But in the meantime, Penny Wong and Peter Dutton, appreciate your time this morning.
WONG: Good to be with you.
DUTTON: Thanks very much.
ENDS

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