SUBJECTS: Morrison-Joyce Government shambles on net zero emissions; the benefits of renewable energy; Labor’s climate policies; nuclear energy; execution of an Afghan interpreter.

LAURA JAYES, HOST: Joining me live now is the Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs, Penny Wong. Penny Wong, thanks so much for your time.

SENATOR PENNY WONG, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Good to be with you, Laura.

JAYES: Thank you. It was more than a decade ago now that I remember you being Climate Change Minister. We're more than a decade on, as I say. Have any of the facts changed? Are we still fighting about, trying to grapple with the same things that were being discussed 10 years ago?

WONG: You know I remember more than 10 years ago - and thanks for reminding me of that Laura - saying the cost of inaction are greater than the cost of action, which now seems to be what Josh Frydenberg is finally saying after combining with the Nationals to make sure we didn't do anything for 10 years. You know what hasn't changed? It's the same bloke, Barnaby Joyce, holding a Liberal leader hostage on climate. It's exactly the same thing he did to Malcolm Turnbull. We're still seeing the same approach by him. Scott Morrison's climate policy is hostage to Barnaby Joyce - that's one thing that hasn't changed over 10 years.

JAYES: No, but you took a very ambitious target to the last election, and you lost. And Labor has lost the last three elections. You could argue that they are on climate change mainly - I know there are other things - so I mean what does Labor learn? What do you need to do differently? Are we at a point now where sure the headline targets are agreed to, but it's the detail where you lose people and fail to bring them with you?

WONG: Look, I think, actually, what we've seen is a dreadful fear campaign over a decade on climate, which has been short sighted and very bad for the country. And it's really now we're seeing the extent to which it's been bad for our country financially - it's been bad in terms of business and trade opportunities. When you have the Business Council of Australia, every industry group, the National Farmers Federation, all calling on the Government to set clear targets, you really know that politics is behind the eight ball. So, you know, I think, at the next election, this is going to be an important issue. It's going to be an issue which goes to whether or not people want to move to more renewable energy, whether they want the opportunities across the country that comes with making the most of the extraordinary renewable energy opportunities we have in this country.

JAYES: Do you think they do? When you say 'they', what do we think about the regions?

WONG: There's no doubt that Mr Joyce and Senator Canavan and others will continue to run the same scare campaign which has worked for them for the last 15 years. But at some point, we have to look at what's happening around the world. And the reality is the world is moving, financial markets are moving, business is moving, and we don't want to get left behind. You don't protect jobs by pretending the world doesn't change. You protect jobs and generate jobs by recognising where markets are going and getting ahead of that, or at least making sure you can sell into those markets. And that's the problem with Barnaby Joyce's position, Matt Canavan's position and ultimately with Scott Morrison's position, because he's allowing him to determine what his policy, or what his announcement will be.

JAYES: But there is a cost for transition, so who should pay for that? And should the regions be protected? How would Labor protect the regions? Can you give any jobs guarantees for example?

WONG: Chris Bowen, we've already announced a range of policies; Rewiring the Nation, which is recognising that changing our energy grid is going to require changes to our transmission structure, to make sure we can bring that energy to market. I think the regions do have opportunities because so much of our renewable energy can be generated and stored in the regions. And certainly, we'll have more to say before the next election. I'll tell you what we won't do - and I've heard a lot about guarantees and support for the regions - we won't be giving Barnaby Joyce a blank cheque, and Senator Matt Canavan of blank cheque for whatever pet project. I mean the most extraordinary thing I've seen around today is the suggestion that taxpayer funding for a coal-fired power station might be part of this deal. I mean if you ever wanted to see why Mr Morrison is nothing more than spin on this, on climate, have a look at what's on the table with the Nationals - it's Matt Canavan's taxpayer-funded coal-fired power station, which will increase energy costs.

JAYES: Well, there are many roads to get there. There are many roads to get there.

WONG: Yeah, but I don't think taxpayer funding for a coal-fired power station is one of the ways to get there, Laura. I don't think anybody would assert that.

JAYES: No, sure, but to what extent - and we've just discussed how long these climate wars have been going on for - how important is bipartisanship, not on the pathway, but at least on that headline target.

WONG: Well, I don't think that Scott Morrison should adopt the target just because he wants to be bipartisan. I think he should do it because it's the right thing for the country. And he should have done it a long time ago. And I think if he does it without legislating it, we will know he's not sincere. But on bipartisanship, well you know, I would have preferred if in 2009, some of the people now opposing action on climate hadn't won inside the Parliament, and we had a bipartisan agreement because I think it would have served the country better. I think we would have had a much more gradual transition, we would have had more jobs, and we would have had more jobs generated before now. We would have had a lot much longer period to make sure we were ahead of the global markets. We're behind the eight ball and we've got to catch up.

JAYES: The universe doesn't give reruns and we are at this fork in the road now.

WONG: Yeah, fair enough.

JAYES: Where are you at in your thinking, the party's thinking, on at least some level of bipartisan on that headline target? It doesn't mean to say that Labor doesn't have a different path to get there.

WONG: Yeah, but the 2050 target we've already adopted. So, if he joins us it's beyond time. I think that's self-evident. I think the problem for Mr Morrison is, as I said, he's got Barnaby Joyce and others there who are holding this policy and the Government hostage.

JAYES: Under what circumstances would you consider advancing the nuclear debate?

WONG: I saw that this came up on your program earlier. I've had this question over a number of years now. I understand, particularly if people are concerned about climate, why some people, including some environmentalists, in some quarters, have looked to nuclear. What I'd say is this; the lead times around establishing a civil nuclear industry are just too long. And so, if you want to move from a predominantly fossil fuel-based energy system to one that's predominantly clean energy, you've got to think about how you make that transition. And what I'd say to you is - leaving aside that there are environmental arguments around nuclear, including the waste and how you deal with that - but leaving those aside for the moment, I don't think it stacks up economically. You're looking at a decade of taxpayer investment in order to get it up and running. I'd rather have a decade of making sure we get the best clean energy technology, the best renewable energy technology in the world here, and enabling us to export our extraordinary amounts of renewable energy to global markets.

JAYES: Will Labor have a 2030 target?

WONG: Chris Bowen gave a speech, I think about a month ago, where he said the Prime Minister should go to Glasgow, not only with the net zero by 2050 target, and the commitment to legislated it, but a more ambitious 2030 target. We'll have a look at what happens at Glasgow and we'll make our position clear before the next election.

JAYES: Just before I let you go, some sad news from Afghanistan overnight, an interpreter that worked with the Australians, has been executed. One of his family members had been trying to get a humanitarian visa, should the Government have got him out sooner? Do you know the circumstances?

WONG: I don't know the circumstances, but I am grateful for you, and others on Sky, for continuing to raise this issue. Can I express my sympathy to the family. This is tragic and distressing news. I want to say - and I think I've said this to you before - Labor, veterans, former prime ministers were calling for months before the withdrawal that we needed to accelerate getting people who helped us to safety. I raised this in Estimates with Marise Payne. I said we have to get our interpreters out, we have to get the people who helped us out. And my concerns about the delay, which were mutual concerns being expressed by veterans, and the community, were dismissed out of hand. I wish the Government had acted sooner.

JAYES: Penny Wong, thanks so much for your time this morning. I really appreciate it.

WONG: Thanks for fitting me in.

Authorised by Paul Erickson, ALP, Canberra.