SUBJECTS: Russian aggression towards Ukraine; consequences for our region; Mr Morrison playing political games with national security.
LAURA JAYES, HOST: Joining me live now is Shadow Foreign Minister, Penny Wong. First of all, welcome to you. Good to see you. What are the options for Australia here?
SENATOR PENNY WONG, SHADOW MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS:
Well, it's good to be back. Thanks very much for the opportunity, Laura. Well, I think Australia should stand very resolutely with the international community. We should, as we are, strongly condemn Russian aggression, Russia's invasion and pending greater invasion of Ukraine. We should be very clear that this is - the actions of Mr Putin in the so-called declaration of independence - is contrary to international law. We should stand in solidarity with Ukraine, with its sovereignty and its territorial integrity. And I look forward to the Government not only announcing but also consulting with the Opposition about the next steps, including whether we will move in lockstep, as I think we should, with our partners when it comes to sanctions against Russia.
JAYES: All indications are from the government that that's exactly what will be announced after this National Security Committee of Cabinet. We'll get to the consultation point in a moment. But when it comes to these sanctions, they've been threatened for weeks in the lead up here. Should we be cynical about how, what impact these sanctions, particularly from Australia, will have on any plans Vladimir Putin has?
WONG: I believe it was clear from the broadcast that Mr Putin engaged in, the path that he is on. And we have to work with our partners, we have to work with the European Union, and the United States, and the United Kingdom to do all we can to deter not only this initial aggression, but any future escalation. It is very, very concerning what is occurring. It is an outrageous and blatant violation of international law. And it is extremely important for the whole of the international community to push back very clearly on what Russia is doing.
JAYES: So, are you receiving briefings?
WONG: We requested a briefing yesterday. I understand there is a briefing arranged for today. I had a briefing during the parliamentary period about the situation. We've had briefings prior to that. And I would encourage the Government to consult with the Opposition, as it consults on many issues when it comes to national security, in terms of what actions Australia is formulating.
JAYES: Given we are so close to an election, decisions made now are going to have an impact long after the election. Is there precedent for you to be more heavily involved as the Shadow Minister in the decision making process?
WONG: Well, your question actually precisely indicates the point in question, Laura, which is we are very close to an election. And these sorts of decisions are likely to continue in their effect, well beyond the next election, into the hands of whomever forms government afterwards. So, it is a national interest point that the Opposition is consulted. Certainly, in previous situations where troops have been deployed, that is the subject of briefings and discussion with the Opposition, advice to the Opposition ahead of any public announcement. And I'd encourage the Government to engage in this sort of national interest behaviour in the current context.
JAYES: So, what do you need to know? Beyond sanctions what other levers can Australia pull?
WONG: Well, that is precisely the set of questions that are worth discussing with the Government. I noticed Senator Payne this morning seemed to suggest, and obviously I can't pre-empt the National Security Committee discussion, but seemed to suggest the Government was primarily focused on sanctions rather than any other action, for example, in relation to diplomats. And, you know, we would welcome a discussion with their thinking in relation to those issues.
JAYES: Look, this entire week, and the moments and the actions in the lead up to this, has really undercut, or almost torn up, the respect for the rules-based order. How might China be looking at what happens on the Ukrainian-Russian border?
WONG: Well, two points; first, your question correctly identifies the risk to the rules- based order which, and I think it's always important for us to emphasise when we discuss it, we support the rules-based order, we support international law and international rules, not just because of our philosophical position, but from a very pragmatic perspective - that this has underpinned the longest period of prosperity and peace that humanity has known. So, there is a very clear reason, that is counted in human cost, why we have to continue to support the international order. In relation to China, as Anthony, as Richard Marles and others have said, and as I have said, we would say to China, as a global power, it is in China's interests that these rules are respected, territorial integrity is respected, sovereignty is respected, and critically, if we are serious about ensuring peace, peace in the world and peace in our region, that we stand against any unilateral acts of aggression and unilateral changes to the status quo, which is what Mr Putin has engaged in.
JAYES: What do you think about this being a national security election? Is Labor ready for it? And is it possible now - given the way the Government has engaged in the electioneering so far - is it possible for Labor to follow through on those more compassionate promises and be able to show their strength on border security?
WONG: I would say this; we saw in this last fortnight a desperate Prime Minister. And I think a question that voters, your viewers are entitled to have answered is why is the Prime Minister, why is Mr Morrison saying some of the things he's saying? He's saying them because he's desperate - so desperate that he is prepared to bring into question bipartisanship on national security. So desperate, not to talk about the deadly summer of Omicron or his failures on vaccines, his failures on rapid antigen testing, so desperate to avoid talking about those issues, he's prepared to tell lies about national security.
JAYES: But you know that scare campaigns work…
WONG: I will do what I think is in the interest of the country, which is to address these serious questions about how to ensure Australia's security in a challenging world, soberly, without partisanship, and in an adult way. And I would encourage Mr Morrison to do the same because that's what Australians deserve. That is what Australians deserve. And I would encourage him to listen to people like Julie Bishop, Dennis Richardson - who has headed up ASIO, Defence, Foreign Affairs - and many others, including past members of the ADF, not to go down the path he has been going down, out of political desperation, The country deserves better.
JAYES: What do you say to voters that might be looking at this debate and thinking well, I don't quite believe that Labor is as strong on national security as the Coalition?
WONG: I would say, understand why Mr Morrison is saying those things. It's because he's desperate to avoid talking about his failures. And I would say very clearly, Labor will never step back from defending Australia's national interests.
JAYES: Shadow Minister Penny Wong, great to see you. Great to have you back. We'll speak to you soon.
WONG: Good to see you.
Authorised by Paul Erickson, ALP, Canberra.
