DAVID SPEERS: So what have all these fireworks in the Senate been about today? The Coalition and the Greens have done a deal to focus squarely over the next few days on Senate voting reforms, both want these reforms to pass Labor and crossbenchers do not. And so that's why we're seeing such a heated debate taking place today and it will no doubt tomorrow as well. With me now Labor Senate Leader, Penny Wong. Thank you very much for joining me this afternoon.

SENATOR PENNY WONG, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IN THE SENATE: Good to be with you.

SPEERS: Lets talk about this issue firstly, on the Senate voting reforms, now Labor did back optional preferential voting a couple of years ago in its submission to the Parliamentary Inquiry into all of this. What has changed?

WONG: Well, weve only seen this bill come forward, obviously Labor determined its position, Caucus, Shadow Cabinet determined its position when we saw this bill and we determined that we werent going to support it.

SPEERS: And why is that?

WONG: I think this is not the right reform and I dont think its the right reform process.

SPEERS: You concede it is a change of position?

WONG: The reality is you will often get Senators and Members on committees putting a particular view, but the party has got to make the decision-

SPEERS: -But your party secretary made the submission.

WONG: The Caucus and Shadow Cabinet have to make a decision and I will tell you why we have done that. Its not the case that we think that everythings perfect and theres no room for reform, we just don't think this is the right reform and we dont think this is the right reform process.

SPEERS: Let me ask you this-

WONG: -No, this is important. This is the largest changes in 30 years. They've been dealt with in a secret deal behind closed doors. It's gone off to a sham inquiry of half a day where the report was written before even questions were asked and now its going to be rammed through the Parliament with very little debate. Now that is not the way you do electoral reform.

SPEERS: This was essentially the model backed by the Labor Party Secretary-

WONG: That's not right. It is a different bill.

SPEERS: How is it substantially different?

WONG: It is a different bill. I think they have conceded that. That is not controversial. But the point is Senators and Members on the JSCEM, the Joint Standing Committee, took a view. When the Labor Party, the Caucus and the Shadow Cabinet determined its position, it resolved not to support this legislation. Now, I don't want to pretend that this is, that there is no room for electoral reform. I think there is.

SPEERS: Let me ask you this on that point - is what the Government has proposed here better than what we've got at the moment?

WONG: No, I don't think so and I think that's the problem.

SPEERS: Your colleague Brendon O'Connor said it may be?

WONG: I think the problem is that you're dealing with one problem, which is an issue that people are generally concerned about, which is these so-called preference arrangements, but you're creating another problem, which is essentially a disenfranchisement of millions of Australians who don't vote for the Labor Party, don't vote for the Liberal or National Party and don't vote for the Greens. Now one in four Australian voters at the last election voted not for one of those three parties. This system really says to them, sorry, we're going to essentially either let your votes exhaust or corral them to come back to the major parties. I just dont think thats democratic.

SPEERS: So if you win the election, would you repeal this?

WONG: I'm spending a lot of time right now fighting to prevent this from coming forward. But I think the more important issue is how do the Greens justify their behaviour today and their behaviour on this front. I keep saying this, very large reforms, this is the biggest change in three decades. Do you reckon this is the right process?

SPEERS: Let's look at what the Greens have done. Senator Leyonhjelm challenged them to bring on the debate today on gay marriage. They've actually said they rather it be dealt with on Thursday during Labor's Private Senators' time. Will you agree to that?

WONG: Can I say what an extraordinary cynical move we've seen today from Richard Di Natale and the Greens. Senator Leyonhjelms motion would have ensured a vote on marriage equality this week. So just as the Greens are making sure Senate voting reform has to be voted on before the Senate rises, this amendment would have ensured marriage equality would have had to be voted on, Sarah Hanson-Young's Bill that shes always wanted voted on, would have had to have been resolved by the Senate before we leave this week and the Greens turned their back on that because theyd rather support their deal than marriage equality.

SPEERS: Was that a stunt or a tactical move? Would it have really seen marriage equality pass through the Parliament?

WONG: It certainly would have ensured a debate and a vote in the Senate.

SPEERS: That would help?

WONG: I have been on the record a long time saying we should resolve this. The Labor Party has sought-

SPEERS: -I know your position on this is absolutely clear and honourable.

WONG: The Labor Party sought to bring this on-

SPEERS: But would a vote in the Senate help?

WONG: It certainly would put the pressure on Malcolm Turnbull, wouldn't it?

SPEERS: So will you agree to bring it on Thursday?

WONG: But this is my point about the cynicism. They know it wont be required for a vote. They know that what they are proposing doesnt require a vote. So let's everybody be clear about what the Greens have said.

SPEERS: What are they proposing?

WONG: Let me explain. The motion the Greens voted against would have ensured a vote on marriage equality this week. What the Greens are now proposing is to have an hour long debate in what's called Private Senators' business where they know it won't come to a vote.

SPEERS: I see.

WONG: So this is an incredibly cynical move from the Australian Greens. This Private Senator's bill they're proposing again is nothing more than cover for the fact that they voted with Cory Bernardi to prevent debate on marriage equality. Because their Senate voting changes, their dirty deal with the Government is more important than marriage equality. I thought it was pretty extraordinary.

SPEERS: So on Thursday, to be clear on this, will you agree to that debate at least or you won't?

WONG: We will certainly look at the proposal. I think it is coming up in the Senate in about an hour. We'll look at what they're putting to us, but frankly-

SPEERS: -If theres no vote.

WONG: There won't be a vote. So we can have a chat again, but this was an opportunity, what David Leyonhjelm did full credit to him, he has actually been persisting with this issue - he said, I'll bring forward Senator Hanson-Young's Bill, that's got to be voted on before we leave this place. Richard Di Natale told his Greens to vote against it and stopped me from debating that. Pretty extraordinary.

SPEERS: One final question, would Labor agree to bring forward Senate for an extra sitting week in May?

WONG: Ill tell you what were not going to do, we are not going to be agreeing to the Parliament and the Federal Budget being moved around because Malcolm Turnbull can't decide whats in his political best interest in terms of the election date, were not going to be agreeing to that.

SPEERS: But will you agree to an extra sitting week?

WONG: I dont think anything has been presented to me as Senate Leader nor the Labor Party which explains why that has any merit other than Mr Turnbull might want - might want - an election in July. Can I say, if Malcolm Turnbull wants to go earlier and he wants to move the Federal Budget date and the Parliament around to suit his political timetable, he probably should be telling you and he probably should be telling the Australian people.

SPEERS: Well, he wouldn't answer that question today as we saw-

WONG: -So I have nothing - why should the Senate respond to rumours about what Malcolm may or may not have in his head?

SPEERS: Let me ask you this, if they can't move the Senate forward that week but they do bring the House of Reps forward that week, where they have the numbers and can do what they want, put the budget and the supply bills through in the first week of May, what happens in that already scheduled Senate sitting week in the second week of May? Do you have to deal with Budget bills only?

WONG: These are questions that should be answered by the Government. I mean, it is extraordinary, isn't it? We are talking about the Federal Budget - we are in March and were talking about the Federal Budget and Parliament being moved in order for Mr Turnbull to get the best election timing he can. And everybody, including you, thats not a criticism of you David, is responding to the gossip and whispers and rumours on something as important as when the Budget is.

SPEERS: We're trying to get some clarity.

WONG: I look forward to them providing it.

SPEERS: In that sitting week what is Labor prepared to do? Are you prepared to only deal with budget supply bills or are you prepared to also look at the ABCC bill as well?

WONG: I don't think there is any justification for dealing with any other legislation. If those bills are so urgent, the Government could have voted on them today. The motion today, another amendment that the Government voted against - this is how important the ABCC Bill appears to now to be for the conservative IR warriors inside the Government - they voted against bringing on their own bill. That's pretty extraordinary too.

SPEERS: Something you just said there, you think that week should only be for the Budget?

WONG: Well, I don't think there is any argument that a bill that is currently on the Senate Notice Paper, that the Government has chosen not to prioritise because it wants to prioritise its urgent, dirty deal with the Greens, I don't think there is any argument that says, by the way, those bills are also urgent so can we have an extra week or can we have additional hours. The Government made a choice about what its urgent priorities are and its urgent priorities are deal with the Greens to change Senate voting. Incidentally, interesting isnt it, they say this will get rid of the secret preference deals at the same time as Michael Kroger is doing a not so secret preference deal with the Greens.

SPEERS: And thats another matter. Labor Senate Leader Penny Wong, thank you for joining us this afternoon. Appreciate your time.

WONG: Good to speak with you.