GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Penny Wong is in our Adelaide studio. Good evening Penny.
SENATOR PENNY WONG, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IN THE SENATE: Good to be with you. That was quite an introduction, Ive got to say, Richo.
RICHARDSON: Yeah, well, Im actually passionate about climate change. I havent weakened on it at all. Now I was never in the extremist group, I never believed that the sea would inundate Campbell Avenue at Bondi, and our great icon beach would be gone. I never believed that, but I do believe that there are serious effects of climate change that people dont even talk about and I really think weve got to get back to talking about them and I think the Labor Party has vacated the field largely for the last three or four years. We need to make it a front and centre issue, we need to try. Why dont we?
WONG: I dont agree with everything you said, but I think as a student of Labor history you will know Labor has been committed to effective action on climate change for, I think, for over ten years now, unlike Tony Abbott. Unlike Tony Abbott were committed to increasing Australias renewable energy use and making sure we tap the renewable energy resources that Australia has. And were committed to capping Australias pollution because that is an effective response to climate change.
Now, as you said, Bill Shorten has made it clear that our response wont include a carbon tax, but we remain committed to effective action on climate change. And it is disappointing that so many on the Liberal Party side, who used to believe that the country should respond to climate change have fallen into line behind Tony Abbott.
RICHARDSON: Yeah, well he just doesnt believe in climate change. Hes not a sceptic, hes a denier. I just wish though that we had taken up the cudgels over the last few years. I think Labor got scared of talking about it and just stopped, and we need to get back in, because quite apart from the Labor Party and where it heads in an election, this is such an important issue. Kevin Rudd got one thing right, it is the biggest issue facing our generation and I wish to god wed start addressing it. And the only thing Id say to you in response to what you just said is, if you have a commitment part of a commitment involves talking, part of a commitment involves proselytising for your cause, for your commitment and I just dont think weve prosecuted this case for a long, long time.
WONG: Well, I mean, thats a matter of opinion, Richo. I think in the previous government we actually did prosecute the case. People might say we made mistakes in how we prosecuted that case, but I dont think its fair to say there wasnt a lot of effort put into arguing the case. But I think the more important issue is the future, and what you heard from Mr Abbott today, and there was a grab of it on the news that preceded the commencement of your show, is again the same lines he used in 2010, the same slogans. And thats because Tony Abbott doesnt actually want to talk about the future, he doesnt want to talk about his plan for the future. He certainly doesnt want to talk about his record, because his record in government is a series of broken promises which hurt Australians. Lets remember no cuts to health, no cuts to education, no changes to the GST and all of the above, which were broken.
And so we know what Tony Abbott will do. Whats important from Labors perspective is we go through the process, which were going through as a responsible opposition of developing our policy well ahead of the next election.
RICHARDSON: Well, I hope we are, I really do. But its just been my view that we got scared of talking. When I say we - its hard for me to say we these days, I suppose its incorrect, you I think you, plural you, got frightened of what was happening on carbon tax. Because we had a carbon tax, ridiculous amount, set way too high, at least four times the world price at the time, so we looked stupid. We knew we looked stupid, so we didnt talk about it. Those days have gone. Weve got to get back to talking about the issue, because what I am frightened about is that we are losing ground on this. That those who believe in climate change are losing ground to the sceptics and the deniers, and I just want to make sure that Labor rejoins the fight. Come with me.
WONG: Look, I agree with you that theres been a real since this Government was elected, since Tony Abbott became the Prime Minister theres been worse than an absence of leadership, theres been a really extreme attack, not only on climate scientists and on climate science, but on renewables. Weve seen in recent days the Prime Ministers attack on renewable energy, his, it seems to be a hatred of, for example wind energy. I dont know why hes got such a set against renewable energy, but thats certainly the approach that Tony Abbott is taking when it comes to this broader issue of how Australia responds to climate change.
RICHARDSON: I thought this decision, that you can now have a Clean Energy Finance Corporation that can invest in anything but clean energy, is pretty strange, pretty strange.
WONG: It is pretty strange. And I think what it really is, when you boil it down, he couldnt abolish the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, because he couldnt get that through the Senate, in fact its his only double dissolution trigger that bill, because Senators said no were not going to abolish it, and so hes trying to nobble it by other means. Hes trying to nobble it by giving it directions which are unachievable and directions not to invest in a whole range of clean energy. I mean its pretty ridiculous and it shows the extent to which this bloke lives in the past.
RICHARDSON: But the excuse the Government uses, and Ive prerecorded an interview with Greg Hunt, which will be shown immediately after you, he and I noticed Tony Abbott, basically say that the real purpose of the finance corporation, or the renewable energy one, or clean energy, was in the end to look at new, innovative programs that might do something, and not the traditional wind farms and solar.
WONG: Thats just a line and its not true. What I would say about Greg Hunt you might reckon hes a nice bloke, Richo and he may well be but I think he is one of the people with the least credibility in Federal Parliament. This is a bloke who used to say action on climate change was important and now is rolled out to justify the inaction on climate change that is Tony Abbotts policy. And a bloke whos at war with Barnaby Joyce over his decisions and his primary defence of that is that he really likes Barnaby, he really, really likes Barnaby.
RICHARDSON: Im going to interrupt you here. They have a relationship, this is true love, I can assure you.
WONG: Well, Im very pleased for them, but I think everybody has seen over the last days that there is an enormous rift in the Federal Cabinet between the Agriculture Minister, Barnaby Joyce, and other ministers, including the Prime Minister, to the extent that hes not appearing with the Prime Minister and hes refusing to back government decisions. I mean youd have to ask, why is Barnaby Joyce still in the Cabinet?
As you know, Richo, Cabinet ministers are bound to support each others decisions, even if in the room you havent agreed with them. And hes out there publicly berating the decision, berating Mr Hunt and the decision thats been made in relation to the mine on the Liverpool Plains.
RICHARDSON: Oh, I know it only too well. I spent three days arguing against the third runway at Sydney Airport, because I wanted to build Badgerys and I knew it would mean, its been a 30 year delay and we all knew it would, and so I fought it for three days. And then I came out and I argued every line Id said was rubbish for those three days. I put them earnestly and pushed the case as hard as I could. Thats what youve got to do. Apparently that commitment to Cabinet solidarity seems to have lessened. Ive got to ask you-
WONG: -Well, there seems to be a Barnaby exclusion clause, which is kind of odd.
RICHARDSON: Well, thats because you cant control Barnaby, you know that. Theres no way in the world hell ever accept discipline, its a foreign word to him, he just doesnt understand the language.
WONG: Well, thats the principle of Cabinet Government that Tony Abbott said to Australians that he would be ensuring would occur under him-
RICHARDSON: -Indeed. Im getting the wind up, so Ive got to ask one quick question. Youve got the conference coming up, the Federal Conference. Now, it seems to me that youve had a really bad month and whether you want to agree with me or not doesnt matter, its just a fact, youve had a really, really bad month. Bill Shorten, in particular, needs to have things go well for him at the conference and he needs some big announcements, some things that show hes got Australians best at hand, that he understands that there is a problem with debt and that he knows how hes going to sort it out. What can we expect to hear?
WONG: Youve been a party to many national conferences, Richo, in your time and you know theyre vigorous debates, theyre inclusive debates. Were an open, democratic party, in which debate is encouraged. But I can tell you one thing; everyone in our party is absolutely focused on ensuring we see the back of Tony Abbott and on ensuring we get Bill Shorten elected as Prime Minister.
Were absolutely focused on some of the key issues, like jobs. We can see whats happening in the economy, we know whats happening in the economy, and we know that the number one priority that we have to focus on is how do we generate jobs in this economy, something that Tony Abbott seems to have given up on.
RICHARDSON: Indeed. Theyre going to get angry with me, and I will do one quick one. Why dont you just get up and say, given the thuggery exposed in the CFMEU, certainly in Victoria, the ACT and NSW, that the unions are out until they sort those problems out. Why dont you just do that? Because it seems to me, every Australian will agree with you, why not do it?
WONG: Hang on a sec, there are great many people who are members of unions and officials of unions, who do the right thing.
RICHARDSON: Thats right, Im a member of a union and will always be in one.
WONG: And what I would say is if there are allegations of criminality, they ought to be referred to the police, and criminal behaviour has no place anywhere and certainly no place in our movement.
RICHARDSON: Why dont you just get rid of them?
WONG: Can I just say, criminal behaviour ought not be countenanced anywhere, but if youre suggesting that we should make sure everybody is excluded because of the actions of some people who have engaged in criminal behaviour, who ought to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, investigated and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, I dont agree with you. There are a great many union members, like you, Richo, who are involved in the Labor Party and involved in their union and they deserve their say.
RICHARDSON: Thats right and my father was one of them, but never, ever, ever would he be caught doing some of the things that these people do. And I tell you, its just-
WONG: -Unacceptable.
RICHARDSON: Its appalling and its unacceptable. The trouble is-
WONG: -I agree with that-
RICHARDSON: -Weve all known about too much of this for years and done nothing about it. Thats the real truth. I have to leave it, thank you very much for your time. Well do it again, I dont mean to cut you off, but theyre getting very angry with me. I have to go.
WONG: Ok.
RICHARDSON: Ok, thanks Penny, see you later.
WONG: See you later, thanks.